Free Cuckold Community at CuckoldPlace.com / Cuckolding Wives / Loosing interest in hubby

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Topic's Quality Rating: 5/5, 21 voting(s).

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asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 30 Apr 2008 02:54:43 Reply  ValGal, thanks for sharing your thoughts. They make a lot of sense. I understand your point, and I think my wife would probably agree. (I've mentioned this forum and this thread to her, by the way; maybe she'll be reading it at some point in the future.) I don't want to generalize over people either, but it's obvious to me that the 'hotwife' and 'Mistress' that most (perhaps all?) cuck-wannabees dream of are not, despite all fantasy stories, frequent female personality types. In the same way that cuck-wannabees are not really a common male personality: most men don't want to be cucked and would be as unhappy as Richard Gere in the movie 'Unfaithful' (as I know from having tried to help several male friends who had problems with unfaithful girlfriends). So I think I do understand my wife. She is like you, like my two sisters, like most of the female friends I've had: a normal 'vanilla' woman ('vanilla' implying of course no disrespect). This is why, by the way, I started reading your thread. When I read your first posts about losing interest in your husband, I felt little butterflies flying in my stomach: I was suddenly afraid. You did sound like a vanilla girl trying to understand a cuckold husband. And the outcome -- you falling in love with your bf and ceasing sexual activity with your husband -- sounded like a quite reasonable and likely outcome. I thought: in a +sex relationship, the wife is turned on by the lifestyle; she actually is also 'kinky.' (Some other women in this forum claim to be like that; one even says she wished her husband wanted to be cucked, but he doesn't, so it remains a fantasy for her... my female analogue, you might say.) But when the woman isn't 'kinky', you have at best a -sex relationship. If she simply is a normal vanilla girl like my wife (or like you seemed to be, I thought), then what happens is: hubby talks and talks, asks, maybe begs a little; with some luck, she agrees; then either it doesn't work, she hates it all (and they go back to square one), or then it does, but then it's because, as you said, there's some deeper involvement between wife and lover. (In the +sex relationship that's also possible, but it's clearly more likely in the -sex relationships, because, since a wife in a -sex relationship is a normal 'vanilla' girl, the 'lover' thing is really exactly like dating and falling in love again.) So I thought, when I started reading your thread: is this what I want? Gulp!... It might lead to her actually falling in love with someone else and leaving me. A frequent outcome in vanilla adultery; and since a -sex relationship is half vanilla... Do I want to risk that? Wouldn't it be ironic if I lost her to the lover that I fantasized for her? Talk about being hoisted by my own petard... That's where my insecurities are now, ValGal. If I God knows how find the magic formula that changes my dear Dr. Jekyll into my dream Ms. Hyde... will Ms. Hyde then simply dump me?... Or lose all interest in me?... Your story and your love for your husband made me think this is not a necessary outcome; but then again, maybe my wife is even more vanilla than you. Should I then perhaps leave the whole story as a fantasy?... But then what will happen to our sex life?... And ultimately to our happiness as a couple? This is why I'm so interested in your experience. It gives me hope that if someday my wife should meet her level of temptation, things won't necessarily end badly. (So maybe I do have a personal, selfish reason for hoping you, your bf and your hubby will live happily ever after...) Being a cuck-wannabe certainly makes your life a bit more dangerous than usual. Does that make sense?
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 30 Apr 2008 02:58:28 Reply  And, ValGal, there's another thing... I do love my wife, and half the time I'm afraid that if I do something to change her -- even if only getting her to meet other men, in the hope that she'll find a guy who she can connect with --, I will be manipulating her, doing something dishonest. In the first times you went dating, after all the discussion about cuckolding with your husband, did you ever feel he was manipulating you? Trying to change you into another kind of person?
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 1 May 2008 04:00:06 Reply  Asehpe, I know guys like you...you tend to think too much. Just follow that inner voice and things have a way of working themselves out. If it's meant to be, somehow it'll happen...if not, well, there's probably not much you can do to "force" it. Just my two-cents worth. As for feeling "manipulated", yes, I suppose I felt some of that in the beginning. It's actually more complicated than that - or, at least it was for me. It forced me to confront what I wanted for myself and what I was willing to do in the name of love for my hubby. Understanding where some of those boundaries were (both types) was hard for me, and I suppose I felt manipulated in the sense that if hubby didn't have his little cuckolding fetish, I wouldn't be spending so many brain cells trying to work things out. I have to say that to me, all the difference came down to accepting the fact that I also had to be there for the other person. I mean, he's human too, with needs and desires and issues just like everyone else. I found that the more I got to be friends with him and genuinely involved in his life, the easier this part got. Wasn't really my intention to fall in love with him, but I suppose it was probably the only way, at least for me. Hope that explains it a bit...
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 1 May 2008 11:31:39 Reply  ValGal, your thoughts are always interesting to read and help me to better insights into my situation and my wife's. What a coincidence: my wife told me half an hour ago that I think too much. You're certainly not the first to tell me that, not even the tenth. I probably do. It's my nature; it's hard for me to 'just be' (as my wife would like me to do -- she's very attached to nature and enjoys, e.g., lying down in a beautiful landscape: a lake shore, a meadow, under a tree in the woods... to just feel the landscape without conscious thought; she loves to do this, while I find it an excruciatingly difficult exercise: I either think about something or fall asleep). If you know a recipe for thinking less, let me know... Relationships are always complicated, because in some sense we seem to be always (unconsciously) trying to 'get something' out of the other: a good mood, advice, a good joke, consolation, tenderness, the pleasure of being together... and there's always the possibility that the other doesn't want to give that right now. So there's always the temptation to 'manipulate', i.e. try to get 'what we want/need' from the other person anyway (or its converse, to 'punish' the other people for not giving it, e.g. with our sadness). I don't think anybody is innocent of this temptation, or even of having acted on it. I don't know... maybe in the end it all depends on the result. If, for instance, you feel OK with your situation now that you also love your bf, then maybe you'll think that your hubby's 'manipulation' was for the best. If both of your guys agree (sincerely and wholehartedly), then maybe it is. Just an idea... As for me, for personal reasons, I'd like to think I'm not a manipulator. But maybe because I think too much -- usually more than the person I'm talking to -- I end up looking like one. That's why I really need to be extra careful in the topic of cuckolding. I don't want my wife to feel pressure from me. Not on such a delicate issue. I will try to listen to my inner voice, as you say. Thanks for the advice...
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 1 May 2008 13:38:31 Reply  Asehpe, I'm sorry if I sounded critical...wasn't meant that way - just meant as an observation. I think a lot of guys are like this - in the end, I suppose I see it as "self-manipulation" (no, not that kind...). It's a way to spin a situation around until you find an angle that meets some need. In my humble opinion, women have less need for this since God gave us all the tools we need to get our needs met by whatever guy we want. And I think "getting our needs met" is a better way to think of it than "manipulation" - it carries less of a negative connotation. Getting needs met is what every living thing does, and with adult humans, you frequently run into the age-old trade-off of women surrendering sex for love, and men surrendering love for sex. Of course, there are cases where the trade-offs are lopsided...where one side is so dominated by the other, it gets to be unfair. But I think most of the manipulation you write about is more or less a 50-50 thing. So long as both sides understand and at some level agree, it's not really manipulative. Using my own situation as an example, when I felt sort of manipulated by hubby in those early days, one of the things I had to do was take responsibility for my own actions. Yes, he manipulated me into certain things I wasn't necessarily comfortable with - but I was there by my own free choice. I could have said "no" any time I wanted, and once I accepted this sort of responsibility, I could stop seeing what he was doing as manipulative. As for thinking less...alas, I hear there are only two good approaches. One involves learning the Zen thing from a certain priest in Tibet. The other approach is lobotomy... And for everyone else following the thread, hubby, bf and I are continuing to pursue the idea of trying to form a happy family unit together. This weekend, I've invited my bf to come spend time with us...we'll see how it goes, but I'm cautiously optimistic.
mark8025t Member 12	# Posted: 1 May 2008 20:33:16 Reply  valgal i was wondering, you say your bf and you have friends together, do they know you are married, or think you are single?
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 1 May 2008 23:48:47 Reply  ValGal, no problem -- you didn't sound like you were criticizing me. I didn't think that. And even if you were -- I'm a big boy, I can take it (no, not in that sense...). As I said, you're not the first to mention this to me. Hm, maybe I've given the impression my life was full of suffering. That isn't true, even not in my love life. OK, I've had my heart broken (most people had too at least once), but it seems I've also broken a couple of hearts -- I remember three girls who wanted me but whom I did not want. So I've been in the same situation my first gf was... I like to think I've handled at least the last two (which happened after my first gf) with honesty and respect. (As for the first one, OK, I was tactless; but I was just a teenager... and teenagers have all kinds of strange and stupid ideas.) You have a nicer take on 'manipulation' -- er, 'getting needs met'. I like it. As long as the other person can say 'no' and stop the whole thing, it can't be that bad. I hope my wife will agree. She certainly agrees on the Zen thing -- she's quite into that stuff. She'll probably convince me to try and find out what power lies behind meditation... Or maybe we could negotiate a trade-off of manip... I mean, getting our needs met... Let us know how it worked out in the weekend. I'll cross my fingers. Asehpe
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 2 May 2008 02:57:20 Reply  Mark8025t, yes, my bf and I have friends together - mainly couples we hang out with once in a while. Nothing earth-shattering, although we once went on a mini-vacation for 3-4 days with a group of them. They know us as a "couple", and I suppose it would never occur to them to wonder whether I'm married or not. Some of them do seem a bit suspicious of me since I'm much younger and he's recently divorced...I'm sure more than one of them has "warned" him about getting involved with someone like me, which is kind of funny when you think of it. Asehpe, glad you took no offense. I guess my take on manipulation comes from a deep respect I have for responsibility. I believe nobody manipulates me unless I first offer my "permission"...a la Emerson's Self Reliance. Perhaps I am too cold, but whenever I feel manipulated, I look inwards and I always find a spot where I willingly gave the power to manipulate me to someone else.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 2 May 2008 11:47:27 Reply  ValGal, your attitude looks very healthy. In my case, I've had some really bad experiences with manipulative people -- the kind who isn't really interested in your consent, they simply "know what's best". I hated that. Looking at myself, however, I saw the potential for the same behavior; and I decided to avoid it. I admit I may sometimes exaggerate in the opposite direction... I've also had a couple of conversations with my wife that made me raise my eyebrows once or twice. I'm beginning to harbor some very timid hopes... All the best, Asehpe
Tom7766 Member 19	# Posted: 2 May 2008 14:38:17 Reply  Hi all, Back from the land of sadness. I am feeling a little lost at the moment since with the passing of my mother I am now parentless. It is amazing to me that at my age with my parents now gone that I could feel like a little kid again and wonder how I am going to get along. Seems kind of strange i guess. ValGal the more I read your posts the more i wish I could meet you. I am developing a great respect and admiration for you. You truly seem to be an honest and caring person who is caught up in a situation and trying to deal with it with openess, caring and self reflection. I hope everything works out and in the end you end up very happy. asehpe, I had to kind of chuckle at your bad experiences with manipulative people as sometimes I feel that is what my job is all about except when I am good it is trying to get people to self manipulate! Heres hoping that everything works out for you. Tom7766 Tom anderson
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 2 May 2008 17:07:35 Reply  Tom, glad to have you back! My last grandmother passed away two years ago (at the age of 98), and I also suddenly felt odd. You know it's going to happen, you aren't surprised, you're prepared for it, you've thought about what you'll do, and yet you're surprised by your emotion. It never is what you had thought it would be. I agree about ValGal -- like I said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed! Now that you're back, I think I'll send you an e-mail to your address. In case you know someone in your specialty in the Netherlands... Asehpe
Tom7766 Member 19	# Posted: 2 May 2008 17:28:32 Reply  Asehpe, Feel free to email and I will see what I can do. Tom anderson
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 4 May 2008 16:32:01 Reply  Tom, thanks for the supportive words...I think you have it about right. I often feel like an innocent child wandering around a life I might not quite understand, but trying to figure it out as I go without hurting anyone along the way. For everyone else, this weekend was my first with both my guys in one place at the same time, and I'm cautiously optimistic at the results. I had my bf come over Friday after work, and the three of us sat and had a long, very frank talk about where we all are with things and what our desires might be. Okay, I was a little militant about it...I felt like I needed to twist some arms to get the discussion going (not to mention priming the pump with a little alcohol!), but once it got going, it seemed genuine. I started it off telling my men that I love them both very much and I want them both to have important roles in my life. I was careful to tell hubby that he's been my best friend forever, and I want to be with him till the day I die. I told my bf that I needed him for the passion and excitement he brings to my life, and that I hope I return to him. I found myself saying how I felt like a lucky girl to have two wonderful men in her life, and that I felt totally blessed to be in this position. The hardest part was getting my men to open up and spill the beans about their feelings. My bf confessed that while he just wanted some sort of physical thing in the beginning, his feelings have grown and he thinks of me as more than just the "trophy gf" he can stick his dick into whenever he wants. He also confessed that he gets a perverse pleasure out of knowing he's taking another guy's wife, both emotionally and physically. At the same time, he admits to fears about some of the pain he has left over from his marriage (he's divorced about 2 years after a 20 year marriage) and that these thoughts make it hard for him to get too close or trust anyone too much - especially someone like me that has a hubby to fall back on anytime I want. My hubby also had some interesting confessions. For one thing, he thanked my bf for taking good care of me all this time, and he admitted that it somehow turned him on in a way he couldn't explain to know that his wife had found a replacement in the bedroom. He admitted that he used to feel guilty because he never thought of himself as a great lover...his words were "I used to feel like I was just masturbating inside you". He also seemed to say that he wears his cuckold status as sort of a badge of honor, sort of like he's giving me something really valuable and noble that few husbands ever would (and of course, I agreed). We also talked more openly about his "feminine side", which he acknowledged more than he had in the past. He admitted that he often fantasizes about himself as a woman, living as sort of my roommate or sister rather than husband. We've touched on some of these things privately in the past, but somehow it seemed much more stark hearing him say it more directly and in front of my bf. The discussion went on and on for many hours...admittedly, it was awkward when bedtime got near. I felt a little weird sitting there with my bf and having lustful thoughts running through my head, just wanting to get in bed with him so I could act them out. I'm sure both guys felt their own awkwardness too. In the end, hubby did us a favor and broke the ice, picking himself up and telling us he was going to head off to bed in our guestroom so that we could have some alone time to enjoy each other. I was a little too tired by then for any sort of marathon love-making session, but my bf and I slid into bed and still managed to have some very tender loving before drifting off to sleep. Somehow the setting seemed much more natural and "right" to me, and that made the sex feel subtly different than usual. Saturday, we all slept late. Hubby was up first and was kind enough to make breakfast for the three of us. The morning was a little awkward, but things went fairly well, and by the end of the day, hubby and my bf were talking to each other and getting along better than I hoped they might. Saturday night we were all feeling sort of emotionally exhausted, so we talked a little more about "ground rules" and how we might change our lives (no real conclusions yet), then we watched a movie and went to bed fairly early. My bf and I saved enough energy to make it a more intense night, which I guess we always do when we know it's the last opportunity we'll have for a while. Still, somehow the whole relationship is feeling more "real" to me, and so it all took on a slightly different (better) feeling. My bf had to be up and out early today, but I have to say, it felt like quite an intense and successful weekend overall. Thanks to many of you who may have (even unintentionally) helped me get to a point where I could approach it this way.
draclif69 Member 2045 Pictures: 29	# Posted: 4 May 2008 20:35:03 Reply  Sounds like you've taken a very significant step. What were the ground rules you discussed?
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 5 May 2008 00:38:07 Reply  Hi ValGal, great to hear that things seem to be going the right way! I'm also curious about the ground rules the three of you have discussed, even if they're still theoretical and iffy. I'm interested in the details of how this might work out for the three of you, how you might reach a stable relationship. I'm also curious about how you feel about your hubby after that, and where you think your feelings for him are going. At first you said you felt that one of the reasons it felt good to be with your bf was that you didn't have to get a real relationship going -- only the good parts. Now it looks as if this is also going to happen. Will this imply changes in your feelings towards your hubby? Will he become more like a brother -- or a sister or roommate, as seems to be part of his fantasy -- and will you then feel more sisterly towards him? Thus no longer jealous should he ever feel anything for another woman? It's probably too early for you to be able to tell. I'm asking just on the off chance that you've already had some thoughts on the topic. Once more all the best to the three of you! Asehpe
Tom7766 Member 19	# Posted: 5 May 2008 00:53:33 Reply  ValGal, Glad to hear things are going well. Poly relationships generally go well with divorces between wife and hubby reasonably low. Bad news, it is usually the women whom has to make sure everyones need are met. Also typically the boyfriend is gone in3-6 years. also you know you got it going on when the guys start looking at for each other and each others needs! tom7766 Tom anderson
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 5 May 2008 02:14:59 Reply  Tom, a lot of the "ground rule" discussions were around each of us talking through how things feel to each of us today. A lot of the talk was around hubby feeling lonely when I spend weekends with my bf, and how my bf feels lonely during the week when we don't get to see each other much. For my part, I talked a lot about how hard it feels sometimes juggling everything and trying to keep everyone happy without hard feelings erupting anywhere. We talked through a few (at this point purely fictional) alternatives...for instance, my bf having a key to our home and more or less coming and going as he likes. Or, at very least having our encounters be like the one this weekend...if not always, at least sometimes. It gets complicated because as I pointed out in some of the other posts, my bf and I have some friends together as a couple, and it would be weird working them into our 3-way family. We hit on lots of other topics, including the thorny how to have kids topics and whether we might at some point consider all living together in some sort of permanent family arrangement. We were all pretty tired, so I'm not sure much of it will stick, but I felt like at least everyone spoke their mind and a lot of ground got covered. I'm sensitive to the issue you mention about how I might feel with my bf. I admit, today he is like a fantasy to me...the sex is wonderful, he's attentive to my every need, and I love him thoroughly for it. But deep down, I know that we haven't faced the tough issues most couples go through as a result of day-to-day life together, and I don't know that we're really prepared for that type of commitment yet. I also haven't at all begun to think through how any of this impacts my feelings for my hubby. More than anything, I guess I feel a sense of relief somehow...even though I tell him whatever he wants to know about my relationship with my bf, I guess I always feel like I'm cheating on him or hiding something. The weekend helped ease that - I felt like maybe he got to see certain things (no, not that!) with his own eyes, and so maybe it'll give him new insights. Hubby's small step out of the closet about his fem side is also on my mind more. At the time he said it, I guess I was just happy he was opening up and sharing his feelings...now, I suppose I have to think through the implications, at least regarding how it might impact me. This feels like a big and complicated thing in its own right, and quite honestly, even though I might have known some of this already, I've probably been avoiding confronting it more directly. Maybe it's time for that part too... I don't know if this will ultimately feel right to the three of us, but I am encouraged that at least there's some dialog going on that's taking life in new directions.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 5 May 2008 09:30:54 Reply  ValGal, at least right now everything is so vague and imprecise for all of you that certainty is not what any of you should be feeling. I get the impression that you all are experimenting with your feelings, trying to find out what feels good and what doesn't. It's a very interesting and intense moment: nothing is really defined yet, everything is possible. An emotional carousel. I can see why everybody gets so tired. I guess that, as long as everybody remains open and hides nothing, you have a real chance. I wonder now if your hubby's fem side is the thing you were feeling bad about before -- the thing you thought you might have been avoiding since you had a bf to go to. I agree that you'll have to explore your feelings about that, as well as hubby's. And bf's. (I wonder what it will be like to bf to go from 'having someone else's wife' -- which apparently was part of the thrill for him -- to actually being in some sort of relationship to the husband in question. But he probably is already thinking seriously about that.) If you feel sometimes under pressure, or emotionally tired, by having to keep both of them happy -- you can sometimes relax and watch/feel them trying to make you happy too. I'm sure both are sincerely trying to do that. Usually this fills the heart with love for the effort that is being made on our behalf. And recharges the emotional batteries. Again all the best to all of you! Asehpe
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 7 May 2008 02:06:48 Reply  Asehpe, you're right about things feeling vague or imprecise. Now that the weekend is over, I've been having independent little talks with both my men and some of this is coming out more and more. Most interesting has been my bf's question to the effect of whether I want a hubby and a bf, or two hubbies. I am doing my best to be 100% honest with everyone involved, and to be careful not to stretch things, accepting that there are many things we have no answers for - at least for now. I think you're right about hubby's fem side...I'm not really sure how I want to deal with that. It occurs to me that if it were just the two of us pre-cuck days, I'd be feeling differently. Now, I guess because I have my bf to escape to, maybe it's not as big a deal - but I also feel a certain sense of walking on emotional eggshells around it.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 7 May 2008 09:08:18 Reply  ValGal, would you be feeling worse about hubby's fem side in the pre-cuck days, without bf as an escape valve? Do you think this would make you angry? I get the impression that, for some reason, his fem side is harder for you to deal with than his cuckold desires. The funny thing is that maybe both you and bf are apparently very vanilla -- I wonder how he is reacting to this situation too. I hope he's not hiding stress just for your sake. (Men tend to ignore some of their own feelings because they think they can control themselves better and do 'what needs to be done'; and sometimes they indeed can. But not always.) Of course communcation and talking are essential, and sincerity from all sides. But I'll make your words mine: listen also to that inner voice, and let things (slowly and carefully) happen. Women tend to be better than men at that. Often they sense where to go, or what to discuss -- hidden problems, etc. -- better than men.
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 8 May 2008 01:51:59 Reply  Asehpe, as always, thanks for the dialog. Yes, there's something different about dealing with hubby's fem side...somehow I suppose I see it as more of a reflection on me. I mean, with the cuck thing, I'm basically the same middle-of-the-road, well-adjusted and normal woman I've always been...but with the fem thing, well, I guess I have to somehow deal with the fact that maybe I was subconsciously attracted to someone who might be a woman inside...it's not repulsive to me I guess...just a bit weird because it's sort of intertwined with me more directly. You're right to point out bf's stuff...I often think of him as older, more stable and somehow beyond the need to sort things out. Sometimes I probably don't give him enough room to be uncertain - his role seems to be almost like a father figure to me...someone who always has all the answers.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 8 May 2008 13:44:47 Reply  ValGal, I'm glad to be helpful. As Tom said, you've won our respect. I honestly hope everything works out the best way for you and your two men. Nobody has all the answers... certainly not I, who am only full of opinions . But, for all it's worth, I get the feeling you're a vanilla heterosexual woman, and it goes against your instincts to feel attracted to someone who's not entirely male. I really have no experience there (I've never been sexually attracted to males, and I've never had any desire to be a woman), but I can guess that your hubby must feel very ambivalent about that. Especially if he thinks that his fem side might be hard for you to swallow and might cause your feelings for him to change. Yet if you're not sincere to him about your feelings... then my experience is that they end up being expressed anyway, in other ways. You probably aren't really sure of your feelings yet; take your time and explore them, find out what you feel. I guess relationships with older people end up including some sort of parental role... He may or may not have much experience with his own feelings in unexpected situations. He probably needs to think about it, and find out how he feels. I hope he's doing that. Men sometimes have a way of hiding their own feelings from themselves, in the hope that things can be controlled. Re-reading what I wrote, it doesn't sound like very coherent advice... I hope it helps anyway.
thebitbucket Member 7	# Posted: 9 May 2008 19:40:43 Reply  Three adults? Hey, knock yourself out but just be prepared for the fact that it is hugely unlikely that this kind of thing will last and you will certainly become a bit of a pariah when (not if) the neighbors figure it out. But kids? Come on... You cant possibly be serious. If you seriously have a desire to procreate long term, recognize that this situation is ridiculous and selfish and have the selflessness to provide your offspring with a normal home life. It is difficult enough as it is for kids today without having to shoulder MORE bullshit baggage from the adults that spawned them. I have gay friends who have adopted and THAT is amazingly hard. IMAGINE the stigma attached to not just a "poly" household, but a matriarchal one? Not to mention that it is unlikely to be legal and anyone vindictive could probably pretty easily get child protective services involved (havent you noticed all of the shit going on with the polygamist sects?) IF this thread IS real (still not convinced of that), *please* do a very serious reality check before introducing children into this tossed salad of adult dysfunction.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 10 May 2008 01:39:47 Reply  Hi thebitbucket, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And I certainly agree that poly-relationships are harder than couples. But I also think that this decision is theirs to take, not yours. You're not even sure they exist... As you point out, kids are often loaded with baggage from their parents even in vanilla families. I am sure the three people involved are aware of that, and would not take such a step lightly. Anyone with a non-mainstream situation would be in this situation; they have to think a lot and make hard decisions. But sometimes they make them. Have you ever thought of asking your gay friends why they decided to adopt a kid (despite being told -- as you certainly would have told them, being the good friend you are -- that this would be a potentially disastrous step, especially for the adopted child?) People should always, always be aware of the consequences of the steps they take. ValGal and her men should certainly think carefully about the problems you mention. But, in-between us: there's no need to be offensive. IF your advice is well meant (still not convinced of that), *please* phrase it better before tossing it into other people's salads.
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 10 May 2008 20:35:51 Reply  thebitbucket, in spite of your judgemental and condescending tone, I do appreciate what you're saying. If I didn't make it clear in one of my earlier posts, I'm not at the stage where having kids is something I want in the here and now...in the future, absolutely - but I don't know whether "future" is six months or five years out. And when it becomes a more urgent issue to me, I will most definitely act according to what I think is best for the child, no matter what. Asehpe, thanks for the chivalry...I have a reasonably thick skin, and I guess I realize that people in here are mostly just indulging in imaginitive fantasy. And I'm sure if I think that way, I suppose most people probably suspect I'm some middle-aged guy acting out my own weird compulsions. I can't do anything about that, but I can speak from what to me is a sincere place, and hoping I attract equally sincere responses, such as yours have been. Separating the wheat from the chaff is just part of it, I guess.
Tom7766 Member 19	# Posted: 10 May 2008 21:53:51 Reply  ValGal, I spent some time reading all of the posts and one thing stuck out to me that I think you need to be aware of. Yopu mentioned that your BF is older and sometimes seems to have all the answers and is somewhat of a father figure. Remember that you are your own strong woman and have your own thoughts, ideas and opinions. When you have feelings like this it is easy to get swayed to default to what he wants and not what you are your husband need. I am not saying to not listen to him just realize what your own words said about him so take what he speaks into account but be sure that you are staying true to yourself. Tom7766 Tom anderson
ValGal Member 101	# Posted: 11 May 2008 00:23:53 Reply  Tom, thanks for checking in...very perceptive of you - I do have some issues in that area. For the most part, I'm the hard-as-nails type - it's probably a defensive thing I project to the world in both a professional and personal way. Helps me seem fearless and beyond getting my little heart trampled. But underneath, I admit that I'm much softer and more vulnerable, and I think one of the reasons I hooked up with my bf is exactly because he can be the big, strong guy I've always looked up to. It's easy for me to slide into much more of a submissive role with him, and I understand I have to watch out for that. Okay to be submissive in the bedroom, but not necessarily where serious life decisions are being made. Still, I mouth the words, but I'm not so sure I don't surrender too easily at some levels.
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 11 May 2008 02:15:05 Reply  ValGal, my pleasure. I think thebitbucket reminded me of (I'm not saying s/he is, but his/her choice of words is reminiscent of) the manipulative people I've met. So I couldn't help but react... I note that, despite that, s/he is a lot better than the disruptive people you can find in many other threads: s/he does have valid points and explains them clearly. You do sound sincere, and your situation -- at least your initial situation -- is very similar to what I had been fantasizing about. Call it a superstition if you will, but if your situation works out well, I feel like mine could have a chance, too. Do I sound more optimistic? Well, that's because... I've had an interesting conversation with me a couple of days ago. She still seems to think it would be better for me to try to change ('get over my problems', etc.), but she's willing to -- sometimes -- play along with my fantasy. She strongly stresses that she's fully vanilla and doesn't want to change that, but... for instance, when she went to her Karl Jaspers discussion group yesterday, she winked to me before leaving and said she was going to her lover. She immediately burst into laughter, because the situation seemed so surreal to her (like something out of an Ally McBeal episode, I thought to myself). And I was left wondering if there was hope. If I make it sound like a joke, if she laughs at it, then at least it isn't just worrisome or frightening to her anymore. Maybe if I play at teasing out the little girl in her, ready to laugh at something funny that this little boy is doing, maybe she won't feel sorry for me, and maybe there'll be something fun for both of us. Who knows? If this goes on... ValGal and Tom, it occurred to me that maybe not only ValGal but also her bf are basically vanilla people. ValGal, it might be that your bf is just as disturbed by your hubby's cuck fetish (and now also his feminine side) without having the love you feel for your hubby to help him digest that. He might think that this is something he has to put up with for your sake. He may think he can handle this. If he's thinking this, he may be -- or not be -- right. (And I also wonder what your hubby's feelings might be in case he feels your bf has this attitude.) Tom, I've sent an e-mail to the address you mentioned a few posts back. Did you get it? I've been having trouble with my e-mail account, so maybe you didn't. Hm, the end of my one-month registration at this forum should be a few days from today. My wife isn't very happy about me being here ('these people aren't really happy'), so I may not renew it. At any rate, I'll keep reading this thread. Asehpe
asehpe Member 161	# Posted: 11 May 2008 02:19:23 Reply  I meant to say 'I've had a conversation with my wife', not 'with me', of course. Damn forum without an option for editing previous posts...
Tom7766 Member 19	# Posted: 11 May 2008 14:03:04 Reply  asehpe, E-mail me again, I did not get it. I am trying to get you some info/help in the Netherlands. I don't have any contacts there but I do have a good friend in Sweden whom I converse with and is a therapist and I am trying to go through him since he is much more familiar with what is available in Europe. Tom7766 Tom anderson

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