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cuckoldmenow
Member
4
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# Posted: 7 Apr 2008 03:20:28
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this is one of the best threads on this site. valgal, i was wondering if you ever let hubby orally pleasure you before or after you are with your bf? does your bf ever stay at your house in the bed you share with your hubby? do you ever have your hubby serve you and your lover like getting you drinks after you have had sex?
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ValGal
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76
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2008 06:03:40
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cuckoldmenow, thanks for the compliment...hope it helps someone out there.
As for hubby giving me oral before or after...well, we did that for a while way back when I was first getting into the whole cuckolding thing, but not so much any more.
I guess it was one of hubby's big fantasies, like a lot of guys on here. I guess I saw it as him showing me that he really accepted the whole setup. It was kind of a strong power thing for me...something about knowing you could make your hubby do that with full knowledge that another guy was in there...very powerful thought to me.
I have to say though, it got kind of "old" pretty quick for me...first, I felt a little weird - hubby would usually want to just after I got home, and I was still sort of on that sexual high I got from my bf. In the beginning, I maybe appreciated hubby doing it as a way to show he was handling it okay - but then I started to feel sort of conflicted about it. I mean, I didn't need the orgasm - I usually had more than I could handle from my time with my bf. So it was mainly just to reinforce that hubby was doing okay, and once I figured that part out, there didn't seem to be a lot of motivation to keep at it, although I don't mean to sound that cold about it.
I guess I was also realizing that I wanted to be faithful to my bf, and the oral part was getting in the way of that. So now instead we talk about it - I'll tell hubby anything he wants to know - but no more oral after I've been with bf.
As for the other part of your question, yes, my bf sleeps over our house whenever hubby is away on business - maybe once or twice a month, and sometimes he stops by for a quickie on his way to work in the morning after hubby leaves for the day. I like it - I guess I feel comfortable there and I want to share my home with my lover. But it's not the case that hubby is ever present...I couldn't do that - I'd feel way too inhibited knowing hubby was around, and I think my bf would too.
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denied
Member
13
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2008 19:15:06
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I just wanted to add that I really have enjoyed your posts. They so remind me of the beginning of my marriage and my wife's personal growth as she took lovers and cucked me.
In our relationship, as I was relegated to supervised masturbation as my primary sex act, I knew my wife's attitude was changing but I also knew the change was appropriate and encouraged her gradually assuming more control.
I strongly encourage you to consider fully consumating your affair by bearing your lover's baby. I will never forget when my wife calmly told me that her affair was so wonderful and her boyfriend so fulfilling that she had decided to have her first baby with him. I was shocked, felt a sharp pain in my belly, but also felt my penis hardening as I quickly realized that her making this decision for us was best.
Our daughter, Denise, is now seven and I could not be a more pleased daddy. I love her and my wife dearly and totally. Her affair with Dennis ended a few years ago, but he still stops by every few months to give his God-daugter a nice gift and to then again enjoy playing with my wife while Denise and I watch tv or play with her new doll.
My wife's decision to have a baby with her lover was best for both of us. I have no regrets and, am actually so pleased with her that she was inciteful enough to take that husbandly responsibility from me and bestow it on the man who had earned it, who deserved it.
Your cuck secretly wants you to go the next step and I would guess that your instincts and body do too. You should relax and listen to them. I so remember when my wife handed me her birth control wheel and told me to dispose of her pills - the symbolism was wonderful. I had one of my little erections as I pushed each pill into the sink while she stood next to me, telling me everything would be wonderful. She was so right.
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asehpe2
Member
2
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2008 01:57:38
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Hi ValGal,
First of all, thank you very much for your sharing your concerns and thoughtful comments -- and also to all the others who provided advice and support. In real life, and much more online, it is difficult to find sincere, honest people: everybody is afraid of everybody else. It's a real pleasure.
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asehpe2
Member
2
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2008 02:52:08
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Hm, a little problem with this new account here. So I'll have to write a second post to share some of my thoughts with you.
I am a male with strong cuckold fantasies which my wife does not really understand: when I talk about them, her reaction varies from neutral ('the things people like!') to concerned ('is there something wrong with you? isn't it some kind of obsession? did your parents abuse you as a child?' etc.). So I have no real-life experience; only my own imagination, conversations with one person who had similar fantasies, and what I've read in books and in websites like this one. I've also always been curious about the nature and origin of my own cuckold desires; I think that understanding oneself is an important goal in life, a prerequisite to any real growth.
After reading this thread, I thought that there seem to be two kinds of cuckold relationships: one in which the sexual tension/attraction between husband and wife actually increases and one in which it decreases. For lack of better terms, I'll call them "+sex" and "-sex" cuckold relationships.
The +sex relationships are what one usually reads about in cuckold sites. The wife's sexual interest for the husband remains, and in fact increases, with her lover (or more usually lovers). She, like her husband, becomes excited not only (or even not primarily) by the sex she's having with her lover(s), but also by the feelings of arousal that she sees in her husband. He 'watches her fuck her lover(s)' and she watches him. There usually (but not necessarily) is a femdom element: the wife laughs, offends, humiliates etc., the husband loves that, and so does she: it's a shared game. Often the wife tells the husband she really loves only him, but she has 'strong sexual needs' that must be satisfied (often she is 'slutty' or 'hot').
The -sex cuckold relationships -- of which yours seems to be one -- are not often mentioned in fantasy stories. From what I see, in these relationships the wife isn't 'slutty', but more like a normal woman who wants a steady sexual relationship but who for some reason can't get it with her husband. The husband is (usually - but maybe not always?) aroused by the thought of his wife getting sex from a lover and by the details of their lovemaking, but apparently much less, or at least less importantly, than in the +sex case: he is apparently more happy with the fact that his wife is being fulfilled than with the details of exactly how this is happening. And the wife tends to lose sexual interest in the husband (while keeping other kinds of emotional ties and bonds) till he becomes 'like a brother'.
To summarize (running the risk of oversimplifying): +sex cuckold relationships seem to be based on shared passion for cuckold roleplaying, whereas -sex cuckold relationships feel more like a good practical solution for the sexual needs of husband and wife.
What do you think?
Assuming that you'd agree that your relationship with your husband and lover can be described as what I'm calling a -sex cuckold relationship, then I'm sincerely curious about a few details; I'd like to understand this situation better, so I thought of a few questions to ask. Maybe you'll also find them interesting or useful.
- Was your initial sexual interest in your husband very strong? Did his performance in bed disappoint you (e.g. in comparison with previous experience?), and did this make your interest in him start decreasing even before you two thought about you having a lover? Was it his idea? How did you initially react? Did you suggest something else initially instead of a cuckold relationship? I noticed you expressed concern for your loss of sexual interest in your husband in your first posts; was it because you used to enjoy the initial sexual interest and are now sad that you don't have it, or do you feel a little bit sorry for your husband?
- In case your husband did not enjoy the cuckold lifestyle -- if he was the usual 'vanilla' husband --, what do you think would have happened? Do you think the two of you would eventually have divorced? What would happen if he changed now or in the future and wanted a different kind of relationship -- a 'vanilla' one, or maybe a +sex cuckold one?
- You described your feelings for your husband in several of your posts as similar to feelings for a brother. Would it then be a thinkable for you to divorce your husband, marry your lover and keep your husband as a brother/really good intimate friend? Perhaps even go on living with him, but not being married to him? In other words: with the loss of sexual interest, what is the need for the two of you to remain married? (Is it perhaps for him to feel like a 'real' cuckold?) Related to this question, and to your loss of interest: how would you react if your husband developed sexual interest for some other woman? Or even took a lover himself? Would your lack of interest for him imply that this wouldn't offend you?
- What does your lover think about your husband (and vice-versa)? Do they simply avoid each other (except for your husband's cuckold fantasies), or can they relate to each other in any other meaningful way?
- I'm curious about your husband and his viewpoint. Isn't he interested in reading / contributing to this thread? How about your lover?
Hm, this post is already bigger than I had planned. I'd better stop here. Anyway, thanks again for sharing! I'm looking forward to your answers, and possible comments by other people here.
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paparas
Member
213
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2008 11:40:53
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very interesting discussion. thanks
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nice_but_naughty
Member
30
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# Posted: 16 Apr 2008 02:04:39
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Very interesting topic. We started out swinging with some couples a few years back. Over a few years it developed from soft to full swapping.
My wife and one of the guys had real chemistry together and she had the best sex with him that she'd experienced. Unlike me, he is very well endowed and has great stamina. Between meetings, she couldn't think about anything else except being with him again. This worried her and she found it very hard to separate the physical and emotional aspects. She enjoyed the sex so much because there was a connection between them. After discussing the matter, we agreed to stop swinging.
However, he kept in touch and kept asking to meet her alone. Eventually she gave in and recently they met him - initially without me but later I came home to join them for a threesome. I participated at times but mainly let him take control whilst I watched or took video footage.
I'm not sure if it's going to continue - part of her wants to keep it going and part is afraid of the consequences.
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 16 Apr 2008 13:55:14
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I suppose what I called '+sex' cuckold relationships (at least in fantasies) is based on the idea of a 'slut' or 'hotwife': the woman wants lots of sex without much emotional attachment (at best like friends) because her main emotional attachment is her husband. She gets off on cuckolding him and on seeing how he gets excited by it too. You could compare it to the usual give-and-take in normal sex: often an important part of a woman's enjoyment is her capacity to give pleasure to the man (and vice-versa), aside from the actual physical pleasure of having sex. It's just that, for +sex cuckold couples, the way the wife pleases the husband is by having lots of sex with others. So if she already liked sex physically (if she was 'a slut'), then it's easier.
But although sluts do exist (everybody knows a couple), it seems more frequent for women (as ValGal put it) to link sex and emotional commitment, usually leading to exclusivity. As far as I understand it, for these women, the enjoyment of 'giving someone pleasure' has to be directly linked to the person they're having sex with. If she's fucking -- no, making love to -- someone, then this is the person to whom they want to give pleasure; no third parties are involved. She simply cannot 'fuck A to please B', she doesn't enjoy B's reactions to her lovemaking with A, she enjoys A's reactions. To such a woman, a word like 'bull' is probably demeaning and prejudiced. (In fact, the French writer Fran?oise Sagan -- the author of "Bonjour Tristesse" -- also wrote another book, whose title I can't remember, about such a +sex cuckold relationship -- more or less; the participants don't realize that what they're involved in is a cuckold relationship -- in which the bull has a very sad scene alone at the end, when he realizes that the woman in question -- about whom he had a few romantic fantasies -- will never love him in the way she loves her husband; he concludes that in such relationships, surprisingly, the bull is closer to being a sex object than the cuckold husband, despite all appearances.)
I'm curious about whether other couples here would describe themselves as having '+sex' or '-sex' cuckold relationships. I see a potential for tragedy in the difference between these relations; I feel like writing a cuckold story to explore this potential. (Most cuckold stories, even the well-written ones, are actually quite simple: everybody participates in the fantasy and gets what they want, there actually is no conflict, enjoyment just keeps increasing more and more, like a romantic fairy tale. I have nothing against them of course -- they're excelent material for people starved for cuckolding... But I would also like someday to see less naive relationships discussed, in which tragedy is possible and perhaps even comes to happen. People are not as simple as most cuckold stories would have you believe...)
Asehpe
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rdvrk
Member
47
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2008 23:14:14
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Hi Asehpe.
I really like your "+sex/-sex" categories.
As the husband in a "-sex" relationship, I can say that the "+sex" type was the relationship I always had as a fantasy (ie, slutty wife and lots of hot sex), but that it just didn't work out that way in real life. Emotional connection is at least as important to my wife as physical sensation, and the whole "dating a lot of different guys" thing just never worked out for her.
Once we both came to terms with her "one-man-woman" nature, we've both accepted that she needs a steady boyfriend with whom she can be both sexually and emotionally intimate.
I have no regrets about that, although it's nothing like what I had imagined when we first started our journey.
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2008 14:42:13
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Hi rdvrk,
thanks for your appreciation! I just had a flash of intuition after I read through this thread and wondered what others -- especially ValGal, who looks like a thoughtful and concerned person -- would think about it.
As I said, I have no cuckolding experience: my wife is simply not at all interested. The impression I have is, if she were at all to become interested (which frankly doesn't look likely at all -- it looks like fantasy forever for me...), it would end up being a -sex relationship. Like you, my fantansy is more about a +sex relationship. I do love her, and if she were to lose sexual interest for me, it would seem that something important had been lost. Or am I wrong, and other bonds are more important?
Which is why I feel curious about your situation and how you feel about it, rdvrk. You say the two of you had to 'come to terms' with her one-man-one-woman nature; how was that achieved? Did it cost a lot of emotional energy, or was it a simple problem to solve? Does she participate in your sex life at all, or are your sex lives now separate -- hers with her boyfriend, yours by yourself (perhaps with some information from her to fuel your fantasies)? If there no longer is any sex between you, '+sex'-cuckold-style or otherwise, does that cause a feeling of loss? Do you find other bonds between you and your wife enough to make your marriage worthwhile? (Say, e.g., do you two like dominance-submission games, and can the lack of sex play a role in that? Or would even that still be sex and thus feel inappropriate to your wife because of her relationship to her boyfriend?) Or even other non-sexual bonds: common interests and activities? If really there is no sex anymore between the two of you (out of respect for her relationship with her boyfriend), then how different is your relationship to her from a (very good and intimate) friend's?
And perhaps more important: are you as a husband satisfied with the result? Are you happy -- not only for her, but for yourself?
I hope my questions don't seem too inquisitive -- I'm really curious, and I'm really trying to understand how this works.
Asehpe
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 01:53:39
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Geez - take a few days off and things pile up...
Before I respond, I wanted to sort of thank some of you for the relatively cerebral nature of the discussion...maybe I've underestimated the male mind all these years. 
Denied, I can sort of understand confusion around the breeding issue...it seems really thorny and complicated to me. For now, I've decided that I don't want to have kids yet, so I refuse to devote much mental energy to it. But I admit I sometimes think how it would feel to give my bf a baby...he's older and never had kids, and I guess I feel it's one way I could show him my love for him is sincere. But for now, it's all just fantasy for me. Stay tuned another 2-3 years...
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 02:11:16
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Asehpe, you said a lot, and let me start my response by saying that I certainly don't hold myself out as any type of expert on cuckolding. The only data point I have is myself and my own relationship, and until it showed up in my marriage a few years ago, I had no clue what was out there. So take everything I say with a grain of salt...
I like your +sex and -sex categorizations, and from the way you've described them, I'd agree hubby is the -sex type. To answer some of your questions:
- hubby and I always had a close bond, but more emotional than sexual. Part of it is our history...we've known each other and been friends since early childhood, so we had an emotional bond a long time before anything physical ever happened.
- As for whether it was "disappointing"...well, I suppose I didn't really have much to compare to, so even though it was never anything fantastic, I don't know that I would have called it disappointing. I just thought that's how it was, and being with my soul-mate seemed like adequate compensation.
- As for how we started...it was hubby's idea 100%. It came out in fantasy talk, then it got to be more and more frequent, then it started being a topic for conversation outside the bedroom. I'd say we talked about it frankly for 6-12 months before anything happened, and in the end, part of me only gave in because I thought I was doing it more for him than for me.
- I think if we hadn't done the cuckold thing, something would have eventually broken in our marriage. I believe hubby felt (feels?) some kind of guilt or angst over being what he feels is an inadequate lover, and the pressure from that was always hard on him. It was everywhere...if I got angry at him for being late and not calling, to him I was angry because he was bad in bed. You get the idea...I have to say, this has totally changed now and hubby acts more like my "equal" - he gives himself permission to get angry at me sometimes and so on...I think, because his inadequacy fears are settled. I mean, how much more can you do for your wife than give her to another man if you believe yourself to be inadequate?
(more later)
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rdvrk
Member
47
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 02:30:41
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Asehpe,
Questions on this board never seem intrusive to me: isn't this what we're here to discuss?
Anyhow, our evolution was that I had always been interested in her having sex with other men. She was open to the idea, and more than happy to experiment.
We started with some threesomes and me watching her do other guys. This was cool for me, but it got pretty tired for her pretty fast. She found it kind of sleazy in a particularly not-hot way.
We've always had really good and open communication, and in the course of our discussions, I asked her what she would be doing if it were entirely up to her. Her reply was that she'd rather go out alone, more like a single woman on a date than putting on a show for me. I agreed to go along with this, and so she started dating alone. This turned out to be much better for her. She felt like she could really relax and enjoy the experience.
Around this time, we were having sex less frequently, and our sex life together mostly centered around me jacking off while she told me about a date she's been on.
After a while, she started seeing a guy she really liked on a regular basis. We talked extensively about what this was like for her and where it might be going, and I gave her my complete support in letting it go wherever she wanted it to. The relationship got deeper and emotional as well as sexual. This was intense for her and intense for me. Watching my wife fall in love with another man: very mind-blowing, very challenging. Still, communication between us remained open, and I continued to support her whole-heartedly.
By this point, sex between us was pretty rare, and a little weird for both of us. When we had sex, she was clearly thinking about her boyfriend rather than me, and I was thinking about her having sex with him, rather than about the sex we were having at the time. After a few times, she just suggested that we stop having sex, and she become monogamous with him. I agreed to this, and we pretty much completed our transition into the "-sex" lifestyle.
That relationship ended (really, really badly, I might add) last year. After their breakup, we revisited the question of sex between us, and agreed to continue refraining from intercourse for the indefinite future. Since then, she has been dating again, and has resumed a full sex life with another man (although she's not likely to get as intensely emotionally involved any time soon).
As to your questions about our relationship, we still love each other a lot, and we still spend all of our free time together. We really were made for each other, and I would never leave her. I do miss sex, but I also find that I enjoy knowing that her sex life is alive and intense, while mine is confined to masturbation. We don't have any kind of D/S or humiliation thing going.
Hope that gives you some insight, and I'm happy to answer any further questions you might have!
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 05:13:28
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Dear ValGal and rdvrk,
I'm very glad I had a sleepless night and came back to check this board -- you seem to be sincere people, and I am sincerely thankful. I hope my own musings can be useful to you in some way.
ValGal, the male mind is as much a mystery full of potential as the female mind. Believe me, I'm a man and I am still clueless about it  . Radical feminism sometimes oversimplifies men as 'agents of patriarchy' or something similar; but this brand of feminism seems to me to be now completely out of touch with humanity...
In terms of cuckold knowledge, nobody is an expert on anything, except -- perhaps! -- on ourselves (there's a singer from my native Brazil who says "everyone knows only the pleasure and pain of being who s/he is"). I think you are someone who had an interesting experience that intrigues me; if I understand your experience better, even though I am a different person, maybe I'll understand myself better.
Your post raises some issues that I'd like to discuss further; but since you said you'd add more later, I think I'll wait for the rest. Maybe you'll answer some of the questions now bubbling in my head even before I ask them.
Rdvrk, thank you very much for your friendly post, and for sharing your experience. What I said above to ValGal about her experience is also true for you -- especially because in many ways you sound similar to me.
From your description, I gather you had few or no problems in the transition from the "+sex" fantasy to the "-sex" conclusion. Is that so? You really didn't feel that something important was lost in the fact that your sex lives became more or less independent -- hers with other men and yours by yourself? Is it important to the two of you that you are married, or could you simply be very good friends living together and spending all your free time together?
The reason why I ask it is something I read somewhere (I can't remember where), and which made me feel afraid of my own cuckold desires. Someone had proposed that cuckold husbands are actually men who became fixated in masturbation -- self-satisfaction was more intense than actual sex with another person, so they became self-oriented (I almost wrote 'selfish') about sex and thought of their sexual partners as sources of inspiration for masturbation -- as if they were their own private porn actresses.
Now, a lot has been said in our sex-oriented age about sex as a source of growth, intimacy, etc. "Finding God though Sex", "Sexual Intelligence", sex as self-expression, giving and taking to get closer, etc. etc. etc. Of course, if you become self-oriented -- masturbation is 'the' thing -- then all this would stop. It would be like, it seems, being so fixated on hot dogs that the pleasures of haute cuisine become unreachable. There are, of course, other ways of growing and getting close to other people; but this particular one would be closed. And that sounded sad to me.
In the beginning I thought that cuckold relationships were meant to be of the "+sex" kind. This would, I thought, successfully counterargue the 'cuckolds-are-just-fixated-on-masturbation' idea: since the 'hotwife' is sexually interested in her 'cucky' (she sexually enjoys his reactions, his pleasure, his arousal with her 'sluttiness', oral sex from him, etc.), and the 'cucky' is obviously sexually interested in her, then there is a path for growing together sexually. Not a traditional one, of course, but still a valuable one.
But now that I see that many (most?) cuckold relationships are "-sex", then I go back to wondering if it isn't the case that this particular road for approaching one's partner -- exchange of sexual pleasure -- becomes closed. And if this isn't sad.
So rdvrk: I totally understand the pleasure of "knowling that her sex life is alive and intense, while mine is confined to masturbation". (Just writing this line right now has given me a hard-on...) But if this fact is not a source of sexual pleasure for her; if she doesn't enjoy sexually the situation; if there is no 'sexual connection' between the two of you except for your knowledge of her intense sexual life as fuel for masturbation, then isn't something important lost? As if you were more like a very close and dear friend to her, rather than a husband? Why be officially married then, rather than simply friends who live together? (Perhaps so that you can be an 'official' cuckold?)
NB: rdvrk, I am not criticizing you, or implying that you've made a wrong choice. If you're really happy with your situation, then of course you've made the right choice. My interest is really understanding how it works for you, and wondering if it would work for me, too. Would I be happy with a '-sex' relationship? Maybe. Maybe not. Right now it looks to me like I wouldn't; but then again if you started out desiring a '+sex' relationship and ended up fully happy with a '-sex' one, then maybe the same would happen with me.
It's getting late, I'd better try to get some sleep. Thanks again!
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 06:16:39
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asehpe, I think it's a keen observation to point out that not all wives are slutty at heart. I, for one, don't at all think of myself that way...I've had way less than 10 sexual partners in my life, and I enjoy a deep, connected relationship on multiple levels where sex is but one dimension. And I think most women are just like me.
You asked whether it would be possible for me to divorce hubby, but remain close friends with him, sort of like a brother. To this, I say "no", I could not do that. For one thing, as much as I am in love with my bf, at some level, I know it works largely because we don't have to keep a whole relationship going. We get the best parts of a marriage, but without any of the hard stuff...when I think of him in the context of someone I might want to spend the rest of my life with - well, I just have too many doubts. Hubby isn't like this. I know that no matter what, he loves me unconditionally and would always be there for me - and in my book, that makes him my husband for life, even if I'm not sexually active with him.
You also ask how I'd feel if hubby wanted someone else. I know it sounds hypocritical, but I couldn't tolerate that. I'm posessive, jealous, etc, and my ego couldn't take it if hubby decided he could live without sex with me, but needed sex from someone else. Like I said, I'm sure that sounds unfair, but it's how my brain is wired...he's the cuck - not me.
As for how my bf feels about all this, keep in mind he's an older guy, recently divorced and probably getting exactly what he needs right now. Point is, I don't think he's likely to rock the boat too much, so I'm not sure he's always completely willing to share his thoughts about hubby. We talk about him from time to time, but mostly he assumes we have a weak marriage and that I need something on the outside to keep myself sane. The most important thing to him is that I refrain from sex with hubby and stay loyal to him - which I do willingly.
A lot of what you ask seems to revolve around the husband's motivations and desires to be in a cuckold relationship, and here I admit that while I've had endless discussions with hubby, I'm not completely sure I understand.
I think part is what I said before about reducing the "performance anxiety" some guys seem to feel, in a way that they think lets the wife experience something special.
I notice many of the guys I've communicated with also seem to have a strong feminine side, so I suspect there's a lot in that dimension as well. Perhaps they somehow live vicariously through their wives.
And I don't think you can rule out a fixation on humiliation or other negative feelings...for some, these things seem to rise to the level of being almost a type of fetish. Together, I think all these things, alone or in combination, add up to a cuckold hubby.
Rdvrk's description above is eerily similar to our setup in most aspects, except that we just started with me dating alone, rather than progressing to it. The (very articulate) way he describes his wife's intimate connection to her bf is exactly how I feel, and I imagine if you asked hubby, this is pretty much the story he'd relate.
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rdvrk
Member
47
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 10:12:47
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Quoting: asehpe So rdvrk: I totally understand the pleasure of "knowling that her sex life is alive and intense, while mine is confined to masturbation". (Just writing this line right now has given me a hard-on...) But if this fact is not a source of sexual pleasure for her; if she doesn't enjoy sexually the situation; if there is no 'sexual connection' between the two of you except for your knowledge of her intense sexual life as fuel for masturbation, then isn't something important lost? As if you were more like a very close and dear friend to her, rather than a husband? Why be officially married then, rather than simply friends who live together? (Perhaps so that you can be an 'official' cuckold?)
Ah, fascinating point.
I would not say that there is no sexual connection between us. There is, in fact, a very intense sexual connection on my part. I am still quite focused on her sexually: I have eyes for no one else. She's the central focus of my sexual desire, and the fact that it's not reciprocal in the traditional way doesn't make us roommates.
In fact, if anything, I feel more intensely attracted to her since she stopped having sex with me. On some level, it's like the thrill I used to get from fantasizing and, later, actually watching her have sex with another man. She is still the object of my desire, but my desire is for her pleasure, not for my sexual gratification. Does that make any sense? It sounds confusing as I write it, but I'm having a hard time making it clearer in words.
As for being married, I am (as noted) completely devoted to her, and she is still (by her report) still very much in love with me. She got the offer from her previous boyfriend to leave me and marry him, which was the cause of their painful and traumatic breakup: she said no.
To address a few other points which have come up in this thread (and elsewhere on the board):
I'm a pretty good lay, by all accounts. I don't have a small dick, and I have never received less-than-positive reviews from my past partners. A lot of this, I think, has to do with my commitment to open communication between sexual partners and a very strong desire to please on my part. Incompetence is not the root of my fantasies or of our relationship.
I also don't have much in the way of a feminine or homosexual side. I'm not homophobic, nor out of touch with some latent femininity within me, I'm just sort of a straight guy. Not freaked out by cross-dressing or homosexuality, just not particularly into it for myself.
To me, the interesting psychological question is: why am I so fixated on her having sex with other men? This is the core thing that I have yet to understand satisfactorily. For me, it's not a mysterious step from that fixation to our situation, but the root desire on my part for her to have sex with someone other than me is still something of a mystery to me. I still don't understand this aspect of my sexuality, and I live in it day in and day out. Weird, huh?
Anyhow, excellent thread, and excellent contributions from all involved!
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 20:09:28
Reply
rdvrk, you seem very articulate and thoughtful, so I'm hoping you might be able to clear up something that I've never been able to understand.
Quoting: rdvrk She is still the object of my desire, but my desire is for her pleasure, not for my sexual gratification.
You essentially argue that you love your wife so much, you want her to get fulfillment - even if it means fulfiilment with another guy. I've heard similar words from my own hubby, and taking it at face value, it is very noble.
My question is this.
I'm trying to understand why you believe that her fulfilment best comes from being with another guy, versus (for example) you learning new or different ways to please her. Later on, you say that you don't think you're a bad lover...well, then what do you think is lacking that would warrant bringing in a "professional" to do what most would believe is your job?
I'm not so sure how to say this more gently...I certainly mean no disrespect. But since you're so similar to my hubby, these are words and discussions I feel like I've had before, and I'm not sure I really understand the thought process here.
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 22:48:04
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ValGal and rdvrk,
the more I read your posts, the more respect I have for the two of you. If you lived in Holland, I'd probably invite you both for a beer (well, for me an apple juice -- I'm a no-alcohol guy...).
ValGal, indeed 'slutty' women seem to be less frequent than more traditional, should I say 'prince-and-princess' women (my 5-year-old daughter is now fully in her 'princess' phase; whenever we see a couple kissing or holding hands on the streets, she says "Look daddy, a prince and a princess!"). I know two 'slutty' women, and one of them seems to have some serious psychological problems -- her sluttiness is more like a drug that she uses to avoid facing difficult choices in her life (and also to attack her mother, who is exactly the opposite), and the results right now don't look good; I think she's slowly getting into pretty big trouble. The other one seems more balanced; she does seem to have a healthy enjoyment of her 'sluttiness' in that it doesn't seem to be the one entire center of her life (she enjoys her career and is much less desperate for attention than the first one), but I must admit she's also the one I know less well. (Some women in this thread, like heather1, also seem to be of the 'sluttier' kind.) Of course I admire sluts and I'd be in favor of increasing their percentage share in the general population as a whole; but all in all, prince-and-princess women are the overwhelming majority, at least in my experience. A difference between boys and girls? Genetically hardwired? Social expectations? All of the above?
'Less than 10 sexual partners' would still earn you a reputation in some places . I'm in my mid-thirties (OK, 37...) and I've only had two, the second one being my wife. As for her, she was a virgin (at 26!) when we first met, seven years ago. I admit we're probably not representative, but I don't think people like us are super rare either.
ValGal, I don't at all think you're hypocritical or unfair when you say you wouldn't tolerate it if your husband wanted sex from another woman. In fact, this sounds to me like one of the best arguments for believing that the two of you do indeed have a good marriage. Does that sound paradoxical? Well, it shows that your relation to him is not really like roommates or brother-and-sister despite the lack of sexual interest from you. I remember you described your attachment to him as 'almost like a brother' in one of your earlier posts; but sisters don't really want their brothers never to have sex with other women; to a brother-sister relationship, this is usually irrelevant. The fact that you demand fidelity from him actually suggests to me that, after all, there is still some sexual element in the way you relate to him. My guess is that his fidelity makes you feel special: it's the proof that he loves you above other women, above other potential sexual partners -- and this love is important to you. You would, I suppose, feel bad if he loved you like a sister.
So my curiosity is aroused. Does the above sound true to you? If so, I have a question... is there any sexual satisfaction from the knowledge that hubby is faithful to you, and that his sexual life is derivative from yours -- that his pleasure comes from vicariously enjoying your pleasure with your bf? (Many women, even if not 'slutty', rather enjoy the effect they have on men around them; they like -- consciously or unconsciously -- the feeling that a man is yearning for them, even if they're not interested in sexual intercourse with him. A cuckold husband would -- if my own desires are any guide -- love to provide this kind of feeling to his wife. To me, just providing this feeling would already fully justify strict fidelity...)
By the way you talked about your bf and you having 'the good parts without the bad ones' and it working 'largely because we don't have to keep a whole relationship going', I suppose that, were you in the same situation as rdvrk's wife (i.e. if your boyfriend asked you to leave your husband and marry him), you'd also say "no" -- possibly with the same traumatic feeling of loss that rdvrk's wife had. If this is so, I think I now understand better how -sex cuckold relationships work. (In fact, I now wonder about your boyfriend. Maybe he feels the same as you do; that the two of you wouldn't really be a good at keeping a whole vanilla relationship going. I hope so; for, if -- after he gets over his divorce -- he starts dreaming about precisely such a relationship, he might get hurt. And in the process also hurt you.)
ValGal, in your first posts you were concerned about your loss of sexual interest in your husband. The way you worded it in your first post sounded sad, and I was left wondering if you had really lost something important there, and if I could survive a similar situation if I were in your husband's shoes. After so many supportive posts and so much advice, you probably don't feel bad about that anymore; but in case you do, let me say it now seems to me you haven't really lost anything. It seems to me you really love your husband, and as a husband, not as a brother. I hope you'll go on making your two men happy and being made happy by them.
Asehpe
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 19 Apr 2008 23:07:48
Reply
ValGal,
just one more thing. As you said, I am indeed quite interested in the motivations for a husband to want to be a cuckold -- not because they're strange to me, quite the contrary, I feel them quite strongly in myself -- but because, as rdvrk points out (and as you mentioned in your question to him), they seem at first to make no sense. But in your case, I am also very interested in your motivations -- since you're a non-slutty wife, it would seem at first that the obvious path for you to go would be to marry your lover and keep your husband as a friend. As a man with cuckold desires, I can 'understand' -- not in the sense of having an explanation for, but in the sense of feeling the same -- your husband and rdvrk; but your motivation for staying with your husband was something else, something I understood a lot less. But now I think I begin to understand your love for your husband.
Asehpe
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 01:02:50
Reply
Rdvrk,
ValGal has just anticipated an important part of what I was going to ask you. (Isn't it wonderful to talk to intelligent people?) I have asked myself the same question more than once. To rephrase ValGal's question: if a cuckold husband simply loves the sexual satisfaction his wife has, why does it matter to him that this satisfaction comes from a man other than himself? Wouldn't it be the same if she was fully satisfied by the cuckold husband? Wouldn't she be just as sexually happy, and wouldn't her husband be j$ust as happy for her?
I'm curious about your answer to that, especially because ValGal's question is deeply related to the question you asked in your post: 'why am I so fixated on her having sex with other men?' As you point out, if you accept this fixation as a fact, then your behavior is perfectly logical. But where the heck does this feeling come from, and what does it mean?
To ValGal, I'd say: wanting to be the one who satisfies his wife's desire is precisely the definition of a good vanilla, non-cuckold husband. If your husband, rdvrk or I wanted that, then we would simply be normal men. Caring, open, friendly, open-minded men, but also normal and vanilla. No big mystery.
So where do cuckold desires come from?
Nobody knows.
Freud tried. He studied Krafft-Ebing's book "Psychopathia sexualis" and gave his opinions on the origin of paraphilias. He thought, for instance, that masochists were really closet homosexuals who felt they should be punished because of their unnatural desires. About cuckold husbands, he said they were (unconsciously) tormented by the image of a strong, strict mother who they always wanted to satisfy but whose judgmental regard they always wanted to turn towards someone else.
Nope. Nothing to do, as far as my instrospection is any guide.
Havelock Ellis ('Studies in the Psychology of Sex') came closer. He noted that sexual sadomasochism, for instance, was connected with sexual pleasure for both partners (unlike true cruelty, which is not; Freud had placed the two together). He thought willing cuckolds (he actually talks about masochists with cuckold fantasies, but I extrapolate) wanted to share sexual pleasure with their wifes in a non-conventional way. More or less like a +sex cuckold relationship.
Then comes Deleuze ('Coldness and Cruelty'), who thinks masochism (and also cuckold fantasies) is a form of delayed gratification: denying myself gratification actually gratifies me. And also Sartre ('Being and Nothing'), who says masochists (which to him also includes cuckolds) are trying to submerge their ego in the 'abyss of the Other's objectivity', i.e. they're trying to erase themselves completely and 'become' part of the Other. The cuckold wants to become part of the wife.
Note that all those people immediately connect cuckold desires with masochism -- to them, it is a kind of masochism. Although there frequently is a connection -- as ValGal noted, desire for humiliation is certainly frequent -- it is not a necessity, as rdvrk demonstrates. So even though these people all highlight different aspects of the experience, I think they don't get the whole picture.
So what's the answer? Why don't I simply want to satisfy my wife? Why do I need (and it's a need, not a noble sacrifice; in fact, because my wife doesn't want it and I do, these cuckold desires of mine are actually slowly driving us apart) her to take her pleasure from someone else? Even if it is true, as some suggest, that cuckolds simply enjoy masturbation more than they enjoy regular sex, why would they find it so intensely erotic to masturbate to the fantasy of their wives pleasure in committing adultery? Why not other fantasies instead?
Nobody knows. Mystery. Life is... strange. Frankly, the fact that I can't intellectually understand it scares me a little bit. I don't like very much things that I can't really understand. You never know if there aren't any monsters hidding there.
Asehpe
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 05:11:34
Reply
Rdvrk, ValGal,
I've certainly written a lot already; maybe you're getting the impression I'm clogging this thread If you think so, let me know and I'll reduce my output.
Regardless of where cuckold desires ultimately come from, there is also the question of 'what it feels like'. Rdvrk, your fascination with your wife's love life sounds very similar to mine, but you (and ValGal's husband also, by the way) are also different in some respects. So I thought it would be interesting to describe what it feels like to me, and ask you if you see any similarities with your own feelings. (Of course I'm the first to recognize that, since I have no actual cuckolding experience, all my impressions come from introspecting about my fantasies. Still...)
I imagine my wife coming back home from her lover with a satisfied smile on her lips. 'Yes baby, I've made love to him, and its was wild!...' In this moment, she looks to me like a sun irradiating potent sexual energy, like a Force of Nature; she is like a Goddess, a Woman who Runs with the Wolves, strong, powerful and awesome; her smile seems to be saying: I am Free, I am above petty social conventions, I am Liberated, Wild and Infinite! She looks like an angel with powerful wings, she has magic at her finger tips, her adulterous affair made her stronger, charged her batteries, made her capable of anything! I imagine her making love to her lover, I imagine her having orgasms, and becoming more and more powerful, more and more magic, her dazzling energy shining more and more intensely, with every moan, every motion, every touch. At that moment I want to do anything to make her even stronger and more powerful; I'd do anything to make sure her adultery was as fulfilling, as glorious, as beautiful and mind-blowing as possible. (From here to submission fantasies, which I also have, it's clearly a very small step.)
Jesus, she looks so incredibly beautiful, so terribly Woman!... And at the same time it's still my little darling, who likes jasmin tea and worries about preparing her next lecture. This mixture simply blows me away.
What would happen if I had been the man who fulfilled my wife's sexual needs? This quasi-religious feeling of awe would disappear. There would be no 'breaking the rules of convention', no 'perverse thrill', no 'spice from the naughtiness of adultery'; no feeling of limitless freedom, of transcendence. It would be a normal situation in which a husband pleases a wife and a wife pleases a husband, in which each of us gives and takes pleasure, in which my pleasure is increased by hers and hers by mine. Very pleasant, but... not the same. Cozy, not Cosmic.
There is also in addition the feeling of conspiracy. My wife and I (alas! in my fantasy) are both committed to her enjoying her boyfriend to the fullest; by doing that, we are co-conspirators against social conventions, we enjoy a private perverse thrill that others don't get. We're partners in crime. Of course this would again disappear if we were simply having sex with each other.
I wonder if any of this would sound familiar to ValGal's husband (or to you, rdvrk?). Despite the similar interest in our wives' out-of-wedlock sex lives, there are also important differences. For ValGal's husband, his guilt at not being able to please his wife plays an important role; for you, rdvrk, this is apparently not an issue. I'm sort of in the middle: although I could probably say I have some inadequacies (my penis size is only a tad above 3 inches, and I don't really enjoy penetration; for some reason, it feels a little painful to me), this has never really been important for me (perhaps because of cultural differences: apparently, Brazilians tend to worry a lot less than Americans about penis size). I was able to satisfy my sexual partners in other ways, e.g. oral sex (my first one was actually surprised by how much she enjoyed it -- she had never had it before -- and kept coming back to ask for more, which made me feel quite proud); so despite my lack of size, I didn't really ever feel inferior to other men. Like rdvrk, and unlike ValGal's husband, I also have no cross-dressing or feminization fantasies -- nothing against people who do, it just is not a source of pleasure for me. (I'd do it if my wife wanted, but that's because my desires include a good deal of D/s also, apparently unlike rdvrk; on my own initiative I wouldn't do it).
Asehpe
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 14:13:05
Reply
Asehpe, you are certainly a prolific writer!
I need to give some more thought to a few of your points before I reply, but I did want to point out that many of the items I wrote about were really focused on me, not my hubby.
The root of the thread is very much me struggling with where I draw lines between what I get from hubby and what I get from my bf, and whether I'm being fair to myself and to each of them.
A lot of the discussion has been around, "well, it's okay for hubby because he wants this" - and while valuable, it doesn't really get to the central point I'm coping with. Society teaches girls to find a nice guy, get married and be happy. I'm breaking all of these rules, and while I accept my situation for what it is, I do feel like I'm walking on emotional eggshells sometimes.
Understanding hubby's motivations and desires is a good way to approach it, I guess, but somehow I need to internalize these feelings and relate them to how I go about my life.
Hope that makes some sense...I'm sure you have some ideas in this direction too - and maybe that would help you understand where your wife might be coming from.
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 15:08:16
Reply
ValGal,
I do write a lot (I'm also a Wikipedian, and I've been told to try to summarize my points on discussion pages -- or else the discussions get too long to be 'followable'. Sigh...)
My standard of fairness has always been: is someone getting hurt? Is someone not getting what s/he wanted? As long as your husband is satisfied -- the point of most of the exchanges -- I don't see how you could think you're being unfair to him. (Or do you perhaps think he may be lying to you, or to himself?) As long as your bf is also happy with what he gets -- and that may be a little more iffy, depending on what his own dreams for the future are -- I'd say you're being fair to him too. And in what way could it be that you're not being fair to yourself? Are you denying yourself something you wanted to have? Is the difference between your situation and the 'prince-and-princess' social ideal that you mention a source of pain to you? Do you feel that you're missing something?
My guess is that you may be unhappy with a 'clash of stereotypes' in your head. Not only is it true that "society" teaches us that 'girls shoud find a nice guy, get married and be happy' (what I call the 'prince-and-princess' fantasy); it also tells us that girls who don't are bad girls who make others suffer because they're selfish and have no respect for the feelings of others. The conflict would thus be: "I want to be a caring, loving person; but what I'm doing now looks -- from the viewpoint of social stereotypes -- like something selfish, uncaring, unloving." Or also: "I know my husband likes this, so as far as the effect is concerned, I am being a 'nice girl', but deep inside it's hard to believe that this 'selfish' behavior is really 'caring and loving'; societal stereotypes would suggest that I am really 'taking advantage of his weakness'. So I'm not being the kind of person I'd like to be." Is this perhaps the struggle you're having?
If so, I'll post some more comments later.
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Tom7766
Member
19
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 16:34:09
Reply
Hi everyone,
I am a family and marital psychotherapist working in a major midwest city. I am primarily involved with families of alternate lifestyles. I have a few points that I would like to share based upon my experience. Being married is very hard and takes a great deal of work even in a so called vanilla setup much less a cuckold type situation. Despite the fact the one or both partners want this expereince/relationship it adds additional stress to everyday life. In over 200 cases that I have provided help, all ended up in divorce when this was a 24/7 or close to that type of arrangement. Additionally most men want out of it after 5-7 years but do not know how or have lost the power. This is especially true if there is a loss of sexual activties between the married individuals. This in many cases is what binds couples and furthers intimacy. You may not believe it or like it but is a fact. I have known very happy couples that have had this lifestyle for many years, >10 and are very happy stable couples but all of these treated the whole situation as just play and there was always some sexual intimacy between these partners. Some final thoughts that I know have been expressed before, communicate, communicate, communicate. As easy as this sounds, it is not. For one thing we hear what feeds into what we want and not always the truth. Two, men in thes long term relationships get so beat down they will no longer express their true desires and needs and they become what the game sometimes makes them weak defeated individuals. It is not my intent here to depress any whom might be doing tis or considering it but I have dealt with too much pain even with very caring people too want others to end up there!
Tom anderson
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 18:05:06
Reply
Tom7766, you're re-awakening all my insecurities now. Do you have references (articles, books, web pages), statistics, case histories etc. that you could share with us? Also, what do you know about couples in which one of the partners very much wanted this lifestyle but the other didn't -- wasn't this also a similar stress? How many of those also ended up in divorce? Also, is it possible that your experience is negative because people who look for psychotherapic help are already going through problems, and that happier cuckold couples (even 24/7) wouldn't be noticed because they simply would never look for a psychotherapist?
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Tom7766
Member
19
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 19:56:03
Reply
asehpe,
No I do not believe that I have a negative bias or my stats are in error. Both of my Master's and Doctoral Thesis's were on alt lifestyles. 1-2% of people are in open relationships and then less than that are into the "cuckold" thing. Divorce rates are around 75% in either case. They actually get worse in a relationship with strong humiliation. Sometimes the women loses respect and sometimes the guy loses respect for himself. Again I have seen some very successful couples but this wasn't a 24/7 style and the humiliation aspect was light. Additionally all of the sessions were followed by word and acts of love between the couple.
Tom anderson
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 20:53:50
Reply
Tom7766,
What's the title of your Master's and Ph.D.? I might be able to find them in the library of the university where I work.
75% is clearly significantly above the American national average of 40-50% (which I've quickly googled now), which certainly supports your 'higher stress' claim. That is certainly worrisome, and would seem to suggest that cuckod and D/s relationships are in the 'handle with care' category. Based on such results and your experience, what is your usual advice to people who are attracted to this lifestyle? 'Don't even try', 'Try something else instead', 'Try it but be very careful'?
I'm guessing that if some guys actually lost all respect for themselves (or their wife's respect), then they must have been doing pretty extreme stuff. Could it be that self-respect was already a serious problem for these people prior to any alt lifestyle exploration, and that they might collapse anyway?
Is your conclusion that sexual intimacy between wife and husband is 100% necessary for a sucessful marriage in this lifestyle? If a wife starts losing sexual interest in her husband, is this then (according to you) a bad sign? So other kinds of intimacies and bonds (contrary to what I'd like to believe) are not sufficient to keep the marriage alive? How about open, frank communication as you recommend? Could it do the trick?
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asehpe
Member
41
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 21:03:45
Reply
Tom7766,
also, my eternal question: do you with your experience have any more insights as to where cuckold fantasies and desires come from?
Also, what do you think about the people who wrote (on this thread or elsewhere) that they are in a 24/7 cuckold relationship and enjoying it very much? Are they wrong? Perhaps lying to themselves? Maybe they haven't been in it long enough? Or are they maybe counter-examples to your claim?
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Tom7766
Member
19
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 22:22:42
Reply
asehpe,
I think that all of the options you listed are valid. My personal opinion on cause is childhood conditons. Nothing bad per se such as abuse but most of our "trigger" get formed in childhood. As for your other questions, Try it if your really want to but be very careful and over communicate. I believe that 90% of marriages will fail if there is no sexual intimacy. Exceptions are physical conditions that preclude any activity. Most people but not all need some sexual intimacy. I do not think this is something that most people can get around by communicating. I can communicate just fine with my best guy friend!
Tom7766
Tom anderson
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ValGal
Member
76
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 23:08:56
Reply
Asehpe, when I say "being unfair to myself", I generally refer to the possibility that there might be some deep seated problem going on that I've found a way to avoid by taking on a lover. Maybe (and I don't believe this) there is some incredible incompatibility between hubby and me, and I'm just avoiding or deferring experiencing the pain of coping with it this way. And I suppose the same thing is possible for hubby...clearly, he has deep issues of one sort or another - is this situation helping him, hurting him or keeping him locked in suspended animation where he can't grow and resolve his stuff.
These have always been my biggest concerns, and now that I have this wonderful built-in "escape" (my bf), I worry that I'm just becoming blind to more than just hubby's sexual needs. I suppose there are worse things than losing sexual interest in hubby (which is where the thread mostly has been)...does a loss of sexual interest add up to other kinds of emotional distance over time as well? If so, how do you prevent this sort of thing?
Tom, it's good to hear from a professional - thanks for checking in. I don't disagree with you at all...indeed you echo many of the concerns I've had. As I explained to Asehpe above, I am sincerely concerned that it's become too easy for me to overlook our problems in any objective way since I have such a great escape waiting for me any time I want it. In "vanilla" marriages, it seems that both people have something on the line all the time: they either deal with their issues, or they lose intimacy. In my case, no matter how I might try, at some level I know that most of my intimacy (at least the physical part) isn't coming from hubby, so I must have less motivation to really keep our marriage on an even keel.
You cite a 75% divorce rate...well, that at least implies there are *some* couples who navigate these waters and come out unscathed. We do have wonderful communications and are (sometimes painfully) honest with each other. Not really asking for free professional guidance, but how do the successful ones proceed once they get to this sort of situation?
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