Loosing interest in hubby - Free Cuckold Community at CuckoldPlace.com (4)

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Topic's Quality Rating: 5/5, 21 voting(s).

Author Message

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 18:05:06
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Tom7766, you're re-awakening all my insecurities now. Do you have references (articles, books, web pages), statistics, case histories etc. that you could share with us? Also, what do you know about couples in which one of the partners very much wanted this lifestyle but the other didn't -- wasn't this also a similar stress? How many of those also ended up in divorce? Also, is it possible that your experience is negative because people who look for psychotherapic help are already going through problems, and that happier cuckold couples (even 24/7) wouldn't be noticed because they simply would never look for a psychotherapist?

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 19:56:03
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asehpe,

No I do not believe that I have a negative bias or my stats are in error. Both of my Master's and Doctoral Thesis's were on alt lifestyles. 1-2% of people are in open relationships and then less than that are into the "cuckold" thing. Divorce rates are around 75% in either case. They actually get worse in a relationship with strong humiliation. Sometimes the women loses respect and sometimes the guy loses respect for himself. Again I have seen some very successful couples but this wasn't a 24/7 style and the humiliation aspect was light. Additionally all of the sessions were followed by word and acts of love between the couple.

Tom anderson

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 20:53:50
Reply

Tom7766,

What's the title of your Master's and Ph.D.? I might be able to find them in the library of the university where I work.

75% is clearly significantly above the American national average of 40-50% (which I've quickly googled now), which certainly supports your 'higher stress' claim. That is certainly worrisome, and would seem to suggest that cuckod and D/s relationships are in the 'handle with care' category. Based on such results and your experience, what is your usual advice to people who are attracted to this lifestyle? 'Don't even try', 'Try something else instead', 'Try it but be very careful'?

I'm guessing that if some guys actually lost all respect for themselves (or their wife's respect), then they must have been doing pretty extreme stuff. Could it be that self-respect was already a serious problem for these people prior to any alt lifestyle exploration, and that they might collapse anyway?

Is your conclusion that sexual intimacy between wife and husband is 100% necessary for a sucessful marriage in this lifestyle? If a wife starts losing sexual interest in her husband, is this then (according to you) a bad sign? So other kinds of intimacies and bonds (contrary to what I'd like to believe) are not sufficient to keep the marriage alive? How about open, frank communication as you recommend? Could it do the trick?

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 21:03:45
Reply

Tom7766,

also, my eternal question: do you with your experience have any more insights as to where cuckold fantasies and desires come from?

Also, what do you think about the people who wrote (on this thread or elsewhere) that they are in a 24/7 cuckold relationship and enjoying it very much? Are they wrong? Perhaps lying to themselves? Maybe they haven't been in it long enough? Or are they maybe counter-examples to your claim?

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 22:22:42
Reply

asehpe,

I think that all of the options you listed are valid. My personal opinion on cause is childhood conditons. Nothing bad per se such as abuse but most of our "trigger" get formed in childhood. As for your other questions, Try it if your really want to but be very careful and over communicate. I believe that 90% of marriages will fail if there is no sexual intimacy. Exceptions are physical conditions that preclude any activity. Most people but not all need some sexual intimacy. I do not think this is something that most people can get around by communicating. I can communicate just fine with my best guy friend!

Tom7766

Tom anderson

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 23:08:56
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Asehpe, when I say "being unfair to myself", I generally refer to the possibility that there might be some deep seated problem going on that I've found a way to avoid by taking on a lover. Maybe (and I don't believe this) there is some incredible incompatibility between hubby and me, and I'm just avoiding or deferring experiencing the pain of coping with it this way. And I suppose the same thing is possible for hubby...clearly, he has deep issues of one sort or another - is this situation helping him, hurting him or keeping him locked in suspended animation where he can't grow and resolve his stuff.

These have always been my biggest concerns, and now that I have this wonderful built-in "escape" (my bf), I worry that I'm just becoming blind to more than just hubby's sexual needs. I suppose there are worse things than losing sexual interest in hubby (which is where the thread mostly has been)...does a loss of sexual interest add up to other kinds of emotional distance over time as well? If so, how do you prevent this sort of thing?

Tom, it's good to hear from a professional - thanks for checking in. I don't disagree with you at all...indeed you echo many of the concerns I've had. As I explained to Asehpe above, I am sincerely concerned that it's become too easy for me to overlook our problems in any objective way since I have such a great escape waiting for me any time I want it. In "vanilla" marriages, it seems that both people have something on the line all the time: they either deal with their issues, or they lose intimacy. In my case, no matter how I might try, at some level I know that most of my intimacy (at least the physical part) isn't coming from hubby, so I must have less motivation to really keep our marriage on an even keel.

You cite a 75% divorce rate...well, that at least implies there are *some* couples who navigate these waters and come out unscathed. We do have wonderful communications and are (sometimes painfully) honest with each other. Not really asking for free professional guidance, but how do the successful ones proceed once they get to this sort of situation?

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 20 Apr 2008 23:34:09
Reply

ValGal,

Typically the sucessful ones get out! If not the
1) minimize the humiliation aspect
2) Absolutely do not do if you have kids or do not have them. They will find out and they will not understand.
3) Do not do 24/7
4) maintain some level of physical intamacy
5) When these relationships succeed it is ALWAYS due to the women. You cannot believe what your husband always tells you. It is not that he wants to lie, it is that he is lying to himself and by the time most women figure it out it is too late. At best a divorce, at worst in my practise 3 suicides, all male and one killing of the wife.

My best to you and your husband

Tom7766

Tom anderson

PalmCoastCouple

Member

239
# Posted: 21 Apr 2008 02:07:43
Reply

Quoting: Tom7766
Divorce rates are around 75% in either case.

Tom... I read something about that not too long ago, with an update that essentially invalidated the original interpretation of causal relationships between Alt. lifestyles and divorce rates.

Apparently many couples interviewed (who were thought to be participants in the Alt lifestyle) already had failing marriages, and merely turned to Alt lifestyles in an attempt to try and save a relationship that was already doomed. Not unlike naive couples that think having a child will "save the marriage".

This would seem to support my observation. Having been in the lifestyle over 20 years (D/s, HW, Cuck) I tend to find that Alt lifestyle couples with solid relationships fare no better or worse than Vanilla couples when it comes to failed marriages...

While those that are having marital problems often explore the lifestyle in a last ditch effort to remedy their troubles. Carrying the baggage of their personal problems, insecurities, drama, etc., the end result is certain to be a disappointing experience that only serves to accelerate the erosion of their relationship. (I hope this isn't drifting too far from the topic).

cuckold - Pronunciation - kuk-uhld - noun 1. the husband of an unfaithful wife. NOTE - It DOES NOT say: Sexually confused, submissive, sissyboy, crossdresser, cocksucker, scat eater, piss drinker, beastiality, incest or pedophilia.

rdvrk

Member

106
# Posted: 21 Apr 2008 04:44:19
Reply

Quoting: ValGal
I'm trying to understand why you believe that her fulfilment best comes from being with another guy, versus (for example) you learning new or different ways to please her. Later on, you say that you don't think you're a bad lover...well, then what do you think is lacking that would warrant bringing in a "professional" to do what most would believe is your job?

No offense taken, as ever. You're being inquisitive and polite, which is much appreciated.

I wouldn't exactly say that anything is/was lacking. My wife and I, when we had sex, had pretty good sex.

Rather, there's something in my wiring that got crossed at some point in my life that makes me intensely attracted to a situation that the overwhelming majority of men would find loathsome: my wife having sex with someone else. That was (and is) more central to my sexual experience than the sensation of intercourse.

Here's the root question, and I have no answer for it: why is this hot for me (and, presumably, others who read on this board)? No matter how much I ponder, I have no idea why this is so intense for me.

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 21 Apr 2008 07:30:43
Reply

To all participants, this thread is getting more and more interesting. It's very stimulating.

ValGal, I think I understand your concern better now. It sounds like the situation, in vanilla marriages, when one of the partners avoids facing some problem in the relationship by concentrating on some other pleasurable activity -- the job, a hobby, the local church, the children, or even something more physically rewarding like (over)eating chocolates.

At one point in my life, it turned out I was using my work to not think about the fact (obvious in restrospect, I should say, but also not hard to see even at the time) that my first girlfriend was much less interested in me than I was in her. She was so full of energy and so pleasant to everybody around her that I could fool myself by attributing more meaning to her manifestations of affection than was truly there. Of course there were also moments when the 'emotional asymmetry' between us became more or less obvious. Because she was, consciously and unconsciously, herself in doubt, she'd sometimes send out conflicting signals. Simplifying a little, I could say that those signals were often the trigger of a sudden desire to go work on my last paper: they'd sometimes show that I had been fooling myself, and I wanted to avoid this pain.

Do you perhaps see similar patterns in yourself? Do you suddenly think of your lover when some potentially painful detail about your relationship unexpectedly shows up? Or any other patterns that might justify your vague apprehension that you may be avoiding something? You've said several times that your hubby 'clearly has some deep issues of one sort or another'; if something happens that reminds you of hubby's 'deep issues', do you sometimes start avoiding it?

You seem to worry that you may be becoming less sensitive to hubby's problems; that because of the wonderful bf, hubby may be slowly becoming... not-your-problem. In short, that you're slowly falling out of love with him. Like the traditional husband who gets so interested in his work that he starts neglecting, and ultimately distancing himself from, his family more and more. This is a legitimate concern; in fact, in light of Tom's posts, it would seem it's not impossible. He seems to have witnessed precisely this kind of situation. Being, as I said, more than a little workaholic myself, I can also relate.

My suggestion to you -- or to a husband who's vaguely apprehensive that he is slowly distancing himself from his family because of his work -- is: know thyself. Examine yourself. Is this a vague apprehension without any empirical supporting evidence yet -- because the social stereotype says that cuckolding wives are 'bad girls' and 'selfish', so since I clearly enjoy my boyfriend, maybe I am being selfish, maybe I am already neglecting hubby? -- or do you notice avoidance patterns like the above that suggest something like this is really already happening? Is it more 'I'm-afraid-this-might-eventually-happen', or is it rather 'why-do-I-stop-listening-to-hubby-when-he-talks-about-his-problems-and -start-thinking-about-my-boyfriend-instead'?

My first gut feeling is that your concern is a good sign. Just like it is a good sign if the husband who may or may not be distancing himself from his family worries about that: it means that his is important to him, and he doesn't want that to change.

If you do find such signs... I'd look at them like this. 'Avoidance' usually doesn't mean you're 'bad' to others; it tends to mean that you're fooling yourself about something. (I was fooling myself by trying to believe my first bf liked me more than she actually did.) I'd try to find out what it is that I'm lying to myself about. And then I'd think about what to do.

I hope this helps !

Asehpe

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 22 Apr 2008 02:56:30
Reply

Asehpe, thanks for the insightful commentary - you're getting closer to the mark.

I try to tell myself that if I'm still concerned about hubby and our emotional welfare - even though he's not my primary sex partner any more - things must be okay. Then I also go to the place where I admit that hubby is somehow living his biggest fantasy...even if I don't understand it myself. Then thoughts about my bf sink in and complicate matters even more. It all gets really confusing sometimes.

Hubby and I have been talking quite a bit more lately about these things...indeed, we've even managed to have several conversations where there is no discussion about sex at all. In a funny way, it's also helping me get in touch with what I want for an "end game".

Anyway, thanks to everyone who's replied recently...I really get a lot out of the posts lately in a positive way.

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 22 Apr 2008 19:26:17
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ValGal,

I'm glad the posts are being helpful. I think it's good to be able to help -- and I'm sure the other posters will agree.

I agree 100% with Tom that talking is essential (remember the Pink Floyd song -- "all you need to do... is make sure... that you keep... talking..."). Try to understand your husband -- where he's at, whether or not he is lying to himself (as Tom suggests many cucks unconsciously are) -- but I know this can be a daunting task, because you're not a female cuck (is there a word for that?). But trying will build bridges and test connections and take you closer to whatever "end game" you want.

But first and foremost, even more important -- try to understand yourself. In some senses that's harder than understanding others... because we blind ourselves to several things in us that others can see. (It helps to listen to other people's opinions about you -- say your hubby's. Other people are often wrong about us, but they are also sometimes surprisingly right. You decide . But it's part of trying to decide what you want for an 'end game'.

As for understanding cucks, here's a little sad tale from my own life that may or may not help. You tell.

When I finally realized my first gf wasn't as interested in me as I had thought -- when I analyzed my own avoidance behavior and hers --, I first made the wrong decision: I decided I'd try to be 'what she wanted and needed'. Many people do that unconsciously in their 'first love' relationships, usually with disastrous results. I did it willingly and consciously, aware that it often fails, but so convinced that I was really in love with her that I could see no other rational alternative.

The result was that she became even more undecided, her signals became even more ambiguous, and she started suffering herself even more. I wouldn't have said this at the time, but now, in retrospect, I think what happened was that she sensed that I was, at some level, pretending to be someone I wasn't. People seem to be able to 'feel' such lies, even when you're a good actor. And that was not what she wanted. But she didn't understand it intellectually -- call it her 'female intuition' if you want. So she was in doubt, she couldn't understand herself what was wrong, and at one point she started sobbing and saying that she'd never meet as good a guy as I was and that she was a fool for not loving me more (see, that's what I mean by ambiguity -- she didn't say she didn't love me, she said she wanted to 'love me more'... so she loves me a little... so there's something that I can make grow... etc.)

Eventually a guy came around who she did fall in love with. This happened while I was away, gathering data for my disseration on a field trip to an Indian village somewhere in the Amazon rainforest (the three of us -- me, this gf, and the guy who eventually became her husband -- were grad students at that time). When I came back, a few months later, all was decided: she was terribly in love with him, he was terribly in love with her, and she tried to tell me that in several meetings, with quiet sad eyes that looked to me like they were hoping I could do the telling for her, so that she wouldn't have to hurt me. She couldn't, she told me part of it, and friends stepped in and told the rest.

Before our common friends talked to me, there was an almost hollywoodian situation. The grad students' room in our university department has this semi-rooms, which can be isolated from the main room by a sliding door, where the senior grad students can isolate themselves to study if they want. One night, after 1 am, I was quietly copying some pages from a source I needed in the copy room, when I saw my gf going to the grad students' room. I wanted to talk to her, so I quickly finished my copying and went there too.

When I came in, there was nobody, but the door of one of the semi-rooms was shut. When I came close, I heard a few noises -- whispering voices -- and to my horror I realized my gf and that other guy were together inside the semi-room. I sat on the floor, next to the door. They were being very discreet, but it was obvious to me that they were having sex. I could even recognize some of the patterns in her sighs. I started crying, slowly but silently, so as not to reveal that I was there.

And I just sat there, listened, and went on crying silently, for almost an hour, till they were done. This remains to this day the most painful hour of my life.

The interesting theoretical part? You might say this is almost exactly a cuck's dream come true. Wife excited by being with lover (so excited they decided do have sex in a more-or-less public place... and it was clearly her idea, not his). Hubby is given no attention, he is totally ignored, he waits next to the door, all he can do is hear the passion in the embrace of wife and lover.

Couldn't I turn that into a cuckold fantasy? Couldn't I get an orgasm from that? No, absolutely not. And the reason is simple. Only two people were involved here. In a cuck fantasy, there are three people: hubby, wife and lover. But in that situation, my gf's guy was playing the role of hubby and lover -- and I was playing no role at all. I was not in the picture -- not in the way that a cuck husband is made to be 'not in the picture' during the fantasy (you can read lots of similar situations in the stories on this forum) -- but I had no role to play; I really, literally, totally, completely, was not a part of it. And here is, if you want, all the difference between being a cuck and being cheated (or actually, in this case, not being loved).

What happened afterwards? When I noticed they were done, I stood up and silently left, so that they wouldn't see me. I never told my gf, so to this day she doesn't know this happened. I just took the elevator and went downstairs, then I left the building and started wandering around, from Fondren Library to the Mudd Building then to Sewall Hall then back to the library, till a car from the campus police saw me, stopped, and a friendly-looking male officer offered me a ride home. Even after almost an hour I hadn't stopped crying, so my face was a mess; and even though it was freezing outside (at least by my Brazilian standards), I had left my coat in the department building (it felt strangely OK to be shivering from cold then, in harmony with my feelings, let's say). The officer was polite enough to pretend not to notice that. When I got to my room, I went straight to my computer, opened the file with my dissertation and worked for I don't know how many hours straight -- I remember the sun was way up in the sky when I finally fell asleep on the table. The following day I knew for a fact that trying to be what my gf wanted would never work; that it had been the wrong decision to take, even if was taken intellectually, as an attempt to solve a problem with precision. I had to look for another way out.

I'm not sure if this story is any help, but I thought it might shed some light on what a cuck is. Or at least what this cuck-wannabe here is.

Asehpe.

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 22 Apr 2008 19:35:58
Reply

Tom,

in case you're still reading this thread... you mentioned your opinion that cuck fantasies start from trigger events in early childhood -- not (necessarily) abuse, but simpler situations. This sounded strangely true to me, but I couldn't understand why at first, till I remembered something from my early childhood: some stirrings of (maybe sexual?) pleasure I felt when my little sisters would play 'horsie' with me. I'd be their horsie and they'd ride me for a while, with little gleeful giggles. It was a lot of fun. Of course it wasn't the only game we played, but it occurred to me that my cuck/submission fantasies might have started from me simply reading a 'more sexual' meaning in their gleeful sounds -- if one my sisters smiled once in a sexier way than usual, then maybe this started a chain reaction (no doubt reinforced by other occasions of 'horsie' playing) that led to my current desires.

Could it be that simple? Could it be that, if she hadn't smiled (or if we never had played 'horsie'), then I'd never have developed cuckold and D/s fantasies? Is something so important and intimate ultimately just the result of a chance event that could very easily have happened differently?

Scary thought. Makes life look like a Milan Kundera book.

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 23 Apr 2008 01:47:50
Reply

Asehpe, that's quite a story...I don't know you, but I can only imagine how painful that must of been to you, especially if you really cared deeply for her.

For what it's worth, I've heard similar tales from some of my female friends..."he's such a good guy - why aren't I attracted to him?". My advice is always the same: be honest with him.

In my view, we all have a basic commitment to be honest, especially when someone else's feelings are involved - no matter how difficult it is. Funny, she probably wanted to spare you and pain, and yet I suspect she couldn't have found a more painful approach if she tried.

Anyway, I know school is a difficult time...in our case, hubby and I went to college on opposite sides of the country, and at one point, we went nearly six months without seeing each other in the flesh. Funny, even then he was into the cuck thing...his advice to me was to find someone and have a little fling. He thought otherwise I might get so lonely, I might meet someone and have it go the way you described. I guess it was easier for him to accept me cheating than losing me altogether.

Thanks for sharing...

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 23 Apr 2008 10:46:54
Reply

ValGal,

Thanks. But this happened over nine years ago (time flies...), and I've told the story to several supportive friends in the meantime. It was a terrible day then, it's only a bitter memory now. The current problem is that my wife -- a totally different person in all respects -- is not at all into cuck or D/s play. (Curiously enough, my first gf would probably have been much more approachable for this topic, perhaps even interested herself. Oh life...). I've broached the topic about two years ago, and her basic attitude hasn't changed. Since I can't change myself (if there was a pill that would convert cuck+D/s desires into vanilla desires, I'd take it for her; but there isn't) and I can't force her to go against her own nature (she has quite a strong personality, much like myself), I currently don't see how to avoid a slowly growing but apparently unavoidable separation.

Indeed I see in retrospect that it would have been better if my first gf had acted as you advised your friends: by being honest to me. At the time, I would have probably preferred her not to do so (because I was trying to find out how to be what she wanted/needed, and I might not believe her; or, if I did, this would concentrate the pain in one moment instead of diluting it through several months). But in retrospect, I agree 100% with you. I ended up suffering a lot more from the delay and from lingering hopes than I would have if everything had been decided more quickly. On her defense, I will say that she herself was in doubt for quite a while, and that after she was sure she tried several times but couldn't do it. Maybe if she were just a little less nice, it would have been better for both of us.

Cuck desires may be hard to understand to non-cucks; in fact, as rdvrk put it, they sound crazy even to the cucks and cuck-wannabies themselves. But maybe it's just as hard to understand as the old mystery of love, 'what-did-s/he-see-in-him/her' or 'why-doesn't-s/he-like-the-nice-guy/girl-instead-of-the-nasty-one'.

I hope your own attempts at understanding your hubby (and especially at understanding yourself) are going well and end up being successful. Let us know what the 'end game' situation is that you want once you find it. I wish the three of you the best.

One thought I just had, re-reading what you said in one of your posts about your feelings for hubby and bf. My love for my gf was deep, and so is my love for my wife. But they are in so many ways different, in some important sense they feel so different to me, who experienced them -- as different as those two women were different from each other --, that I've wondered if I shouldn't use two different words to refer to them. As much as love is a beautiful word, it seems to me that it sometimes hides more than it reveals, by suggesting too much similarity between situations that are in almost all respects (except in the existence of sex-based attraction) totally different.

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 23 Apr 2008 13:04:57
Reply

PalmCoastCouple,

You are right in that the results of the two studies were questioned. In fact there were more reasons that you listed that bought up "red flags". In an attempt to verify/refute, all methodology and results were turned over to a 3rd party contractor known to be an expert in surveys, interviews and stats. Their finding was that alt lifestyles was at a 76% divorce rate and not 75% so this also goes along with what I see. Naturally this does not mean all are bound to fail or that your relationship is not rock solid and will forever be that way.

Wishing you well
Tom7766

Tom anderson

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 23 Apr 2008 13:14:04
Reply

asehpe,

Yes your horsie play could be that simple. For example, I deal with a couple where the man is very into diapers and such. His wife was concerned about this. They came in together and I found out that when the man was wround 4 he was palying outside and he had to use the toilet. As kids will do he refused to go inside since he wanted to keep playing. He of course accidently went in his pants. His father was mad and made his mother put a diaper on him for the purpose of humiliation. He was too big so his mother improvised and made one from a towel. The mother wasn't real happy with this whole idea so she play along yet didn't. She pulled the little boy and her lap and held and cuddled him while calling him her sweet litle baby. At that moment the "guy" felt more loved and safe than at any other time in his life. Hence his little fetish. When his wife heard this and I asked her if this really had a negative effect on her she stated no and they are doing great and he still does this activity occasionally. One example of a trigger. ValGal I hope you are doing well. ValGal/asehpe if you ever have something that you want to talk about more privately please email me.

Wishing everyone good relationships,

Tom7766

Tom anderson

wickedssub1

Member

8
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 06:25:34
Reply

Hello,

First, please let me congratulate all the posters in this thread for their meaningful, enlightening experiences and professional opinions. I have followed this thread for a few weeks and decided to move from 'reader' to 'poster' after reading the professional thoughts of Tom7766.
Tom, you paint a bleak picture of the success rate in cuckold relationships, but, in my opinion, fail to illustrate your definition of intimacy. I think intimacy lies in the minds of the couple, and what can be construed as 'intimacy' in a vanilla relationship might not be true in a femdom or cuckold relationship.
Specifically, whether or not the husband or wife feels there is intimacy depends fully on how the individuals in the relationship define their intimacy. Do the couples you've seen feel intimacy is lost, or was intimacy, in it's standard definition lost? I think that makes a big difference.
For example, if a couple has been engaged in a purely Femdom relationship, as my wife and I have, from the start, does that bias the terms of intimacy from a couple who have evolved from vanilla or semi-vanilla to a cuckold relationship?
In my opinion, and I could be totally wrong, you are completely right to say that once intimacy is lost or projected upon a third party that the divorce papers aren't far behind. But, I think that a satisfied husband and wife, who feel their primary intimacy is between each other, no matter how THEY define it, aren't in danger of becoming 4:1 odds against a successful marriage.
When my wife is blue, she wouldn't think of going to her bull's house for sex. And, it was enlightening the first time it happened. She was in a bad mood, and for some reason not happy with her lot in life at a particular moment. She had plans with her bull that night and cancelled for the sole fact she wanted me to pull her from the funk and spend the time with me if the funk was not to be dislodged for that immediate future. It wasn't sex, but the intimacy I felt and that she felt was more important to our relationship than any 15 minutes of penetration to be had in the world.
We haven't figured it all out yet. I feel jealousy and she doesn't always read it well. I get jealous when I probably shouldn't at times, and she reads it better than any psychologist. I think the bottom line is that I always feel her top priority is our relationship, and I think she feels the same way. Does it ensure we never disagree-hell no. Does it open communication whenever it's required - hell yes.
We've taken the time to read "The Ethical Slut" and attended workshops and discussed jealousy, pleasure and open relationship with professionals. If I could recommend one thing to prospective or current cuckold relationships, that would be it. Talk. Talk to others. Read what's out there. Don't take anything for granted and don't fear getting into an argument now and then to ensure everyone's feelings are heard.
Our bottom line is that this isn't easy. It produces immeasurable fun for everyone, but has HUGE potential to destroy. Don't forget that the plug can be pulled at any time, and the consequences of pulling it will never be worse than those of not pulling it if things go to far or badly.
My two cents worth...

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 20:45:09
Reply

wickedssub1,

I think the outlook is bleak. I also think that you nd your wife are doing all the right things, open communication, reading resources and do have a good level off communication. I do think for a successful relationship intimacy has to include expressions of love and some kind of sex

Tom anderson

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 25 Apr 2008 21:57:13
Reply

Dear Tom,

Thanks for your kind offer. I hope I'm not presuming too much by asking your advice -- as ValGal said, I don't want to look like I'm asking for a free consultation. But since you offered... and please feel free not to answer if you think I'm asking for too much help.

If you've read my other posts you know my wife is not into cuckod-D/s play, but I am. I've mentioned the topic to her, I've been mentioning it for two years, but up until now she only feels sorry for me and wonders if I shouldn't see a doctor.

So: what do you think I should do?

(a) continue trying to convince her? (But I get the feeling I'm putting pressure on her to do something she doesn't want to);
(b) stop asking and try to get pleasure from something else? (I've tried, but because of my desires I end up having to fantasize a lot in my head, and she often notices and worries; doesn't seem very stable);
(c) try to change the nature of my desires? (is there a way to do that? I am actually curious about this; since you said trigger events in early childhood can be quite simple, is it possible to revert them somehow in your opinion? Or is it as hopeless as trying to 'cure' homosexuality?)

I fear we're now in a downward spiral. It isn't terribly bad yet, but I don't see how to avoid a situation in which sex between us becomes less and less real, less and less interesting, and less and less frequent. And I don't know where this will end. (She also has lots of problems in her professional career right now, which adds quite a lot to the stress.)

Thanks,

Asehpe.

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wickedssub1

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8
# Posted: 26 Apr 2008 06:12:46
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I agree that the pressuring route will lead to diminishing returns and highly suggest working on the "stress at work" and the vanilla issues before embarking on a lifestyle that could tax the best of relationships.
When we've had stress in our lives, even after fully embarking on a cuckold lifestyle, we step away. We've gone a few years without a single experience when our lives were too hectic to incorporate the time and effort into making cuckolding work.
It all boils down to where it lies in the priority of your relationship. If it's anywhere above the "this is for fun" line, trouble is soon to follow. I think keeping it in perspective and knowing when it 'fits' and when it doesn't goes a long way.

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 26 Apr 2008 19:42:18
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To all the recent posters, I want to say that I'm really impressed with the level of the discussion lately. I always find most online forums sort of sleazy, but this is starting to sound like real people helping each other out...as originator of the thread, I'm sort of proud of that.

Anyway, I'm just getting home from spending the last two nights with my bf, and I thought I'd tell everyone that we've sort of started a new line of discussion around a more stable arrangement.

It's still early stages and I'm not saying anything is decided (or even clearly understood), but the thought is to maybe form some type of family out of the three of us (me, hubby, bf) living together. Sort of a polygamous setup, but instead of a guy and multiple wives, me and two hubbies.

It was mostly my bf's suggestion and I haven't really made up my mind how I feel about it yet, but at least it feels like a loving attempt by him to get closer to me without asking me to sacrifice my marriage to hubby.

Haven't brought it up to hubby yet...guess I want to get my bearings first.

Curious what everyone will think about this sort of arrangement.

Val

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 00:04:33
Reply

Hi to everybody,

I am also quite happy with the exchange here -- as I had said before, I'd probably invite you all out for a beer if I could. I don't have anything against fantasies, or against threads on 'how to humiliate your husband' -- in many ways the stories and photos in many of these threads here have sometimes been my only source of release -- but it feels really good to be able to listen to real advice about real problems from real people with real experience.

Wickedssub1, I am really impressed with the amount of effort and work you put into making sure your relationship was going the right way. Your advice is valuable, and agrees with my own instincts and with what other people say here. I especially agree that it's necessary to solve the vanilla problems first. My wife is currently quite overwhlemed by the difficulty in finding stable work in her area (philosophy) in a different country -- she was born in Ukraine and we're now in the Netherlands -- because of all the issues foreigners and immigrants face: a different language, a different culture (consider they had full employment under communism)... I think you were a bit put off by what looked like Tom's pessimism, but I think there's a way both of you can be right. Your theory on intimacy is probably correct, but because most alt-lifestyle couples don't really think about all this stuff before trying, the failure rate can be quite high. As you and several others have stressed, this play, despite the huge amount of fun it can produce, is dangerous stuff, especially in a society in which most people basically still grow up in more-or-less vanilla environments. (I know I went through a strong denial+shame phase about my own desires, which ended only gradually -- and only fully ended after I discovered there were other people like that via the internet...)

I guess it's a little like saying that alt-lifestyle people belong to a risk group. There's hope -- but less than for the average vanilla guy/girl. I don't know if it has to be like that, or if it is like that because of social stereotypes; but this doesn't matter much for real people right now. Maybe in the future things will change, but right now that may very well be the way they are.

On the other hand -- those couples who do successfully sail these waters and get to the other side with a good marriage probably have a better-than-average relationship. They've probably been through so much together -- 'partners in crime', as in one of my favorite fantasies -- that they've grown closer than the average vanilla couple. Where there's more risk, there's also more gain.

ValGal, I see nothing wrong with your arrangement (anthropologists call it 'polyandry': a wife with several husbands; it's rare but it happens, I think in the Himalayas, some regions of India, and on some Polynesian islands, if I'm not mistaken). To me, the crucial factors will be (a) how you feel about that: does it make you feel guilty? and (b) how do your two hubbies feel about each other: can they get along well? Can they be good friends? Can they communicate really well with each other? If there'll be some sort of covert, or even overt, dispute or even insincerity between them -- and if they've had little contact with each other and not really thought about each other as real people before, that is unfortunately far from unlikely -- then you may end up with a difficult and delicate problem in your hands. (Two egos living together is already quite a challenge, let alone three... I bet Tom will say the success rate is not encouraging...) Communication and mutual respect between them -- in fact between the three of you -- probably is, as always, the essential factor. But if the three of you can really feel good together, then I'd say give it a try! Maybe there's a chance; since your bf suggested it, I suppose he's thought about these problems. Just be really, really sure that the three of you are like the Three Musketeers before starting the adventure...

Tom, thanks for your advice (and thanks to you too, Wickedssub1). I suppose finding an alt-lifestyle professional would be the best solution (do you happen to know any in the Netherlands?), but considering my wife's feelings, I'd still have to convince her, and all the signs suggest this would be difficult, an uphill battle.

Right now, I'm feeling rather pessimistic. We've just had a fight of the now-go-sleep-on-the-couch type (or, in our case, in the little room in the attic) precisely about alt lifestyles. I'm sitting here writing this while the little TV shows 'Scrubs' and 'That 70's show' re-runs on Comedy Central, thinking that life will forever be like this. Oh, tomorrow morning we'll both feel sorry about this fight, we'll both apologize to each other -- she'll probably even be the first to apologize, she's such a darling -- and we'll promise to take better care of each other's needs, and everything will be OK for a few weeks, perhaps a month, till the next fight.

And I wonder how long this will go on, and how it will end. It's funny, even paradoxical... I can understand what ValGal said in an earlier post, about how the cuckold thing seems noble: the husband is graciously letting another guy satisfy his wife so as to make up for his inadequacies. I wished it were noble. I suppose it would be if the husband in question were a vanilla guy. In my case at least, I think it's more like being a homosexual. I feel like I'm fighting for the right to satisfy my desires; but since I'm apparently also fighting against my wife, and against her view of what men's desires are, and ultimately against her own desires -- if sex between us gets worse, it's not good for her either -- then it sometimes feels like the opposite of noble. As if I should be feeling guilty. And when I think we have a 5-year-old daughter, a delightful little girl full of intensity and adventure whom I love very much, and who may end up being an innocent victim of all this -- then I actually do feel guilty. Oh life.

Asehpe.

subserv

Member

46
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 00:47:28
Reply

ValGal,

How would it work out if you all three lived together? What would be hubby's role? Seems to me that you enjoy your private time with your BF. Would that continue? Would your hubby be happy with not having sex with you and with your BF handling that part of your life? Is hubby into being humiliated by your BF?

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 00:48:47
Reply

ValGal,

I just had another thought -- I suppose a lot will also depend on how well the possible new arrangement fits your hubby's fantasies. From what you know, what do you think? (You mentioned once that hubby has a feminine side, and enjoys feminine clothing, etc; it might be a problem for him to do that with bf living in the same house, and then he might feel as if his liberty had decreased in his own house...)

Asehpe

Tom7766

Member

19
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 13:16:05
Reply

ValGal,

Poly relationships do work but they have their own special problems. Again if you comunicate well and everyone agrees then I have seen some good relationships in these areas. They typically last for years but eventually break up and the orginal couple usually stay together. Bring this up in a mature loving manner with your husband and you can even get some literature on line about these situations. Poly relationships though are all about everyone agreeing to the "rules" up front whatever they might be.

asehpe

Sorry about your fight with your wife, I once spent a week on the so called couch over what turned out to be a stupid silly misunderstanding. Therapist heal thyself! I have some oversea contacts and I will see what I can do about a contact in the neatherlands. Hang in there and tell her you lover here everyday very much. She my not understand your desires but she will be affected in a positve way knowing how much you love her.

Again if anyone wants to talk in a more private setting send me a e-mail at zardoz66@tomail.com

I hate to end on a sad note but my mother passed away last night so I will be offline for several days. This has made me relfect even more on the importance of our relationships. I truly wish everyone much joy and happiness.

Tom7766

Tom anderson

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 13:42:00
Reply

Tom, sorry to hear about your mom. I guess it sort of puts things in perspective.

Subserv, the idea would be to create something more permanant that recognizes that there are three people involved here. It's appealing to me because I do have very strong loving feelings for both of my guys, just in different ways, and I guess it might feel somehow more "stable" to me than what we do today. Being a woman, I suppose one of the things I struggle with is that I'm having a deep, sexual relationship with someone - yet there's really no commitment beyond "see you next time". Knowing that we'd be coming home together to some kind of shared life - and not having to sacrifice hubby - seems like it might be a better solution for me.

Of course, hubby hasn't weighed in on the idea yet...I mentioned it to him for the first time last night and I'm not sure it really sunk in. At least initially, it seemed to be all about the sex and perhaps some of the humiliation he might feel (which seemed to arouse him), but it's more than that. It's mostly about the three of us making a commitment to live together this way, and like I said, I'm not sure that part sunk in yet. Of course, my bf might be in the same boat...I'm sure he's thinking that it's mostly about getting to sleep with me every night, more than it being about trying to build a family together.

Asehpe, I'm stricken by the way you describe your relationship, and it's given me some new insights into my own situation. I suppose for me the broad issue of cuckolding has always been something that isn't life or death....rather, it's something hubby offers that I've learned to live with and have fun with. What you point out so eloquently is the other side of this equation...it *is* life and death, something you really have no control over, to the point of it being an ongoing obsession. I suppose I've thought these kinds of words, but hearing some of the things you're saying certainly crystalizes it for me.

Now, tell your wife to get out there and have some fun! If she can't/won't, just have her send me a note and I'll give her a few pointers...

My bf suggested that a possible next step would be for the three of us to start spending more time together "as a family". In other words, just doing day to day things without necessarily a big sexual component in the air. That might give all of us a sense of whether this could work and where the pitfalls might be.

Anyway, stay tuned for more...

blazingsun

Member

16
# Posted: 27 Apr 2008 14:36:06 · Edited by: blazingsun
Reply

Hi Val,

If you remember me, I had PMed you initially when the thread started, suggesting polyandry would be a probable solution. You can refer that mail and if you need any further details on it let me know. I am aware of these, and seen some first hand. Few sects in north eastern states in India have these sort of marriages and being from the country I am quite aware. These relations are described in Tantra and to some extent Kamasutra....well not sexually more in terms or how rules are laid or basic philosophy and system to it.

Actually what caught my eye was

Quoting: asehpe
n case you're still reading this thread... you mentioned your opinion that cuck fantasies start from trigger events in early childhood -- not (necessarily) abuse, but simpler situations. This sounded strangely true to me, but I couldn't understand why at first, till I remembered something from my early childhood: some stirrings of (maybe sexual?) pleasure I felt when my little sisters would play 'horsie' with me. I'd be their horsie and they'd ride me for a while, with little gleeful giggles. It was a lot of fun. Of course it wasn't the only game we played, but it occurred to me that my cuck/submission fantasies might have started from me simply reading a 'more sexual' meaning in their gleeful sounds -- if one my sisters smiled once in a sexier way than usual, then maybe this started a chain reaction (no doubt reinforced by other occasions of 'horsie' playing) that led to my current desires.

Could it be that simple? Could it be that, if she hadn't smiled (or if we never had played 'horsie'), then I'd never have developed cuckold and D/s fantasies? Is something so important and intimate ultimately just the result of a chance event that could very easily have happened differently?

I do agree women as mothers and sisters have so much power to emotionally push you around while growing up. Its once you realize over the years on how things have been manipulated you start being a sub or rebellious...not to mention other negative emotions toward your own people. It may just start by favoritisms or making you quietly oblige....Well women are the one, esp. mother and wife who can make or break a man. Its them who can make a lion out of sheep or a sheep...well here you can say ....a cuck out man.

Btw. what your BF suggested is a right way to approach it. Refer to my old PM or PM regarding one of the communication system and you might want to try it out.

Wish you all the best ValGal.

asehpe

Member

160
# Posted: 28 Apr 2008 03:32:23
Reply

Tom, sorry about your mother. I hope you get through this well. Thanks also for the offer to help. The fight with my wife was, as I had expected, short-lived; we're already reconciled. (It was about whether or not people in alternative lifestyles could actually be happy; my wife claimed that their happiness, if it existed at all, was based on deeper problems that they should try to understand and solve rather than simply ignore; I took the opposite viewpoint; sparks flew... we're both better at handling argumentation than the accompanying emotions... and I ended up in the attic room.) I do try to tell my wife how much I love her as often as possible. I think she feels it. She also tells me she loves me, and I do feel it too.

ValGal, I really hope it works out well for the three of you. I think your bf is probably right: it's a good idea to see how the three of you feel like when you're together. Normal situations first, taking care of the house, buying groceries, cooking dinner... Perhaps spending time together in another setting -- a couple of days' vacation somewhere, maybe. And only deciding after that. (I wondered if the age difference between bf and hubby would be a problem -- your bf is older, right? Maybe also differences in worldview, political opinion -- Hillary or Obama? -- Your bf is older, right). I'm glad to see your bf, not you, take the initiative in suggesting this; it suggests he is, after all, interested in more than a 'trophy girlfriend'.

On the other hand... A potential problem would be a competition for your attention. If done in good sport, it could be funny and amusing; if not, it could be tragic. (This things often happen between siblings, by the way.)

It's funny, ValGal, I've just had the thought that heater1 may have been right in an earlier post (though she said it in a rather off-putting self-righteous way): maybe your story is about a vanilla girl who married a non-vanilla man and how she tried to understand and deal with the situation, how she developed, and then grew further. You were not interested in the lifestyle by itself (no '+sex' relationship), you happened to have a husband who was. Most stories are more or less +sex and deal with wifes who are clearly interested and enjoy the lifestyle; but you are not one of them. Interesting.

Life-and-death? Yeah... sort of. I don't want to sound like cuckold sex is the only thing that interests me: there are lots of other things I love and without which I would suffer. I can sometimes get so interested in some aspect of my work -- some research question -- that I can go a whole week without any 'kinky' thoughts. (Quasi-)Vanilla sex with my wife can also be rewarding. She is the woman I love. It's just that... that... Perhaps the best comparison would be: imagine that you're in your late thirties, you're still a virgin, you don't especially enjoy or admire celibacy and you have no moral or religious reasons to want it, and you have some evidence from the internet that some people somewhere are apparently happily having sex. I guess, under these circumstances, a vanilla person might also experience a smoldering feeling of urgency...

Thanks, by the way, for offering to give my wife some pointers. I may actually accept some day! Right now, however, it looks as if, even in the best case scenario, we're still months away from that.

Blazingsun, I agree that women -- mothers, sisters -- have a tremendous effect on the development of boys; but so do also fathers and brothers... It's just that Tom's idea of a 'trigger event' being the source for further sub/cuckold desires made me think of that particular incident in my childhood. I don't think my sisters were manipulating me, or pushing me around emotionally; at the time, they were too young for that (I was 5-6, they were 2-3). Later on, I took the more 'dominant' or 'leader' role in my relationship to them, and I'd guess -- though it's always hard to tell -- that I have influenced them more than they have influenced me.
I'm curious about cases of polyandry in India. Are they like the Tibetans (wife is married to husband and his brothers; older brother gets to father children), among which -- or so I've been told -- the wife has actually very little say in the whole situation, or does she have more freedom of choice and action?

ValGal

Member

101
# Posted: 30 Apr 2008 01:49:52
Reply

Asehpe, thanks for checking in.

I wanted to comment on your whole "+sex" idea again.

I won't generalize to other women, but for myself, my body is a precious thing that I only plan on sharing with a very few select guys over my lifetime. This means I tend to be pretty careful about who I get close to in a physical way, and indeed the physical and emotional stuff is very intertwined for me. In my view, this would make it almost impossibly difficult for me to simply indulge in sex for the sake of sex, no matter now enticing or no matter how much I thought hubby might want me to. There's always a deeper meaning, and so the only guys who get past that hurdle are ones I want to have some sort of serious commitment to.

As a result, I'm sort of inclined to believe that my bf is more than just a sexual diversion. I wouldn't have been able to respond to him if there weren't something deeper going on. I guess my point to you is that this might be where your wife is coming from as well...perhaps as much as anything, it's a matter that she hasn't found someone where the emotional bond comes though, and perhaps if she does, you might have an easier time convincing her to go for it.

A lot of people (especially guys) talk about fidelity - but often the difference between fidelity and cheating just comes down to opportunity. I may be a bit jaded, but I like to believe I could probably get any guy I want into bed, if it were important to me. Maybe everyone has a level of temptation they can't resist...perhaps when your wife meets hers, your dreams of being cucked will unfold.

Just my two-cents worth...

Make sense?

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